Musings on the medium: Or, how I learned to stop worrying and love mages

[ExperimentAlpha]

About halfway through writing an ill-constructed, no-sleep forum reply, I thought to myself "Golly gee, this would awfully derail the thread at hand even more so than the comment seems to, and this is honestly a topic that rolls across the brain more often than not" so I decided to scrap that and just make a new thread.

The remark in question which triggered this particular avenue of introspection is as follows:

one could argue mages are quite powerful as it is based on the sheer amount of them you see in game most of the time. Just sayin'

While this can just as easily be dismissed as simply detracting from the discussion and rerouting a thread on spell focus changes to "buff fighters pl0xz", I took note of this comment for two reasons. One, I rarely see any PCs that don't have the ability to use magic in some way, shape, or form; Two, I am deeply loath to do so myself. This got me to thinking - why do I feel such a sinking regret in the pit of my gut every time I commit myself to a character concept that doesn't at least have a thorough investment into UMD? The conclusion I came to was, in essence, that playing a character who has access to magic simply lets you do more by a nearly logarithmic measure, in terms of the sheer roleplayability alone.

Before I continue, I will note that by "Mage" I refer to any character that has access to innate casting. Note that this includes wizards, clerics, paladins, rangers, assassins, and any other character which has access to an innate spell list. Though, I will point out that this is ironically the greater majority of classes that players have access to, making it statistically more likely to run into a mage or not by sheer randomization alone.

Completely disregarding mechanical power, which is its own unique can of worms, mages and characters who have access to magical ability simply have more options they can present in any given narrative than an equivalent mundane character. Any storyline available to a mundane character, save for that of "The Mundane Hero and their struggle against/with magic", can similarly be played out by a character who has access to magic, albeit with a likely different result. Moreover, a mage has access to plots that a mundane character simply is not equipped to address: A mundane character is very unlikely to be able to address the portal to the far realm which had opened on his doorstep unless he has access to some manner of magical prowess, such as a scroll of Disjunction or Banishment, or similar magical ability accessed via UMD. At best, without these, a mundane character will be able to chop and/or shoot at the gibbering horrors spilling forth from the dread rift while the mages sit in the back and actually fix the problem.

This gets only more problematic as the scale of the problem increases. Five goblins show up to town? The wizard doesn't need to lift a finger because the fighter has it handled, but could just as easily clap his hands and cast Fireball (or Burning Hands, for that matter) and address it with equal finality. An army of orcs shows up to town, and the fighter might be able to challenge the chieftain to a duel, while the Wizard can, again, clap twice and cast Wail of the Banshee and decimate the greenskin horde. Woe be unto the army who encounters an ESF: Evocation cleric who has the Cave domain, who will not even need a second casting of Earthquake to send the survivors scattering. Now, say that some truly terrible foe appears - an Ancient Red Dragon, for example. Unless it makes the tragic mistake of landing within our poor fighter's reach, he is utterly at the beast's mercy unless he has some way of closing that vertical distance between the two.

Now, this isn't limited to narrative problems of a combative nature. What is your average mundane character to do when presented with a mystery? I hope you really topped off your Search and Spot skills, because if you didn't then you're sitting there twiddling your thumbs while the Wizard starts casting Detect Magic and any number of other information-gathering magics. If the DM hasn't deliberately set up the plot to obfuscate the mage's attempts to seek out information - such as the Cleric literally resurrecting the murder victim and asking who their killer was - it will be solved swiftly and with all the finality that magic has to offer. Similarly, matters of diplomacy are infinitely aided by the correct application of a friendly bard nearby, whose natural charisma paired with their oratory magics boosting their Persuade checks will make even the most bristly of neighbors come to a peaceable solution, while a purely mundane character would need to work and invest easily ten times as much to get a remotely similar result. These statements completely disregard the narrative flavor that an odd cantrip provides in helping with the general business of your character - being able to heat your food with a simple spark cantrip to add narrative flair, or stating that you've changed your clothes with a simple transmutation spell to explain your sudden change of wardrobe instead of handwaving away the hundred tailors kept in the closet of the Wave and Serpent to hasten everyone's clothing changes, for example.

Ultimately, though, I don't think there is anything to be done about this - Nor do I think that there is, frankly, anything which can be done about this short of giving everyone access to UMD, which would invalidate ~40% of the appeal of the Rogue and Bard classes altogether. Ultimately one must stick to their concept as best as they are able, and roleplay it as long as they're willing to maintain its sanctity. However, I don't think that we can discount the apparent fact of mages simply being able to handwave problems out of existence as appealing toward players who want to have active characters who contribute to stories beyond simply standing around in the dale and dithering the day away - not to mention the amount of color and flavor a mage can add even in that circumstance that a more mundane character would lack. Compounding this with the borderline 'anything-you-can-do-I-can-do-better' nature of magic as a whole, you get a veritable perfect storm of flavor and function that mundane classes are incapable of competing with - and, unless we want to bring fighters to the point where they're literally cleaving moutnains in half with the swing of their blades, I doubt there's really much to be done about that.


Before this thread gets derailed - I would like to note that I make no remarks on mechanical diceplay balance. Frankly I consider that irrelevant to this topic, though I welcome you to open your own thread with musings about what numbers being changed on a character sheet will make you more likely to roleplay a farmboy with a giant metal stick as opposed to a literal god amongst men who bends reality to his whim and summons dominated succubi and angels to engage in raucous three-ways on the weekends. That being as it is, though, I'd love to hear contrasting opinions and I would love to be proven wrong.

[VashO_o]

Okay.

What you are saying in ways validates my statement - As in magic is quite powerful, so powerful that it has the ability to remove hordes of enemies in a single spell. Which there fore causes more people to play mages in general (I myself play a cleric currently) and/or get enough UMD to use scrolls and items available. With that said some do also utilize UMD to bypass certain class and or other restrictions to optimize a build not solely to use a scroll( admittedly the majority is for a spell scroll) Which again points to the fact spells are incredibly powerful. And I do agree with the IC perspective of being able to do more weather it be via spell craft rolls or lore rolls etc.

You made a comment about buffing fighters, which nowhere was that indicated nor was it mentioned by myself. In my opinion, I feel fighters can be incredibly powerful for the ability to be ready at the drop of a hat, as in Divine magics typically can elevate you to a solid fighter style of base stats and beyond, however it also requires preparation and planning on the part of when to use that divine power or favor or might etc.. While my main ( a fighter WM) requires one button and you almost need to roll a save vs death(Sorta) So I believe you have mistaken what my intention was. While casting your skill checks and rolling your dice to prove you have a skill, the rogue can just as easily be using his skills in spot and search which he took the time to max to find and disarm the trap two feet away from the Mage of whatever sort. I think the point here is everything has something that could be improved upon, and party play is what makes the IC narrative that much better. A Trap In front of a wizard who isn't skilled in removing traps may have all the knowledge of the trap in the world but that doesn't mean he can successfully remove it without dying and or taking a major loss of HP. Perhaps while your casting detect magic the same rogue is using his skills in search to track down a clue left by said "murderer" and find another way to implicate them rather then solely relying on magic, because not everything in a fantasy world is caused by magic(most stuff is though)

As I said in previous posts and in hind-sight my goal wasn't to bash you nor the thought of once again elevating an already quite powerful class but to step back a moment, and to think about what is the best for server health and new players and old players alike. Is that to have everyone vying for the same gear and or builds? Or does diversity in builds and character concepts enrich the environment? Does this mean to make more powerful builds more powerful? Or perhaps focus on the classes which in some ways may be lacking as seen on a few other threads on here. Granted my comment was ~slightly~ trollish and wasn't exactly meant to derail your thread but if a single line did that in of itself has implications. If you would like to discuss this further please feel free to PM me or HMU in game my login is the same as my forums. Thank you.

[ExperimentAlpha]

Okay.

What you are saying in ways validates my statement - As in magic is quite powerful, so powerful that it has the ability to remove hordes of enemies in a single spell. Which there fore causes more people to play mages in general (I myself play a cleric currently) and/or get enough UMD to use scrolls and items available. With that said some do also utilize UMD to bypass certain class and or other restrictions to optimize a build not solely to use a scroll( admittedly the majority is for a spell scroll) Which again points to the fact spells are incredibly powerful. And I do agree with the IC perspective of being able to do more weather it be via spell craft rolls or lore rolls etc.

Thank you for taking the time to read. I know I can be aggressively long-winded at times, and people willing to tolerate that are a mercy.

You made a comment about buffing fighters, which nowhere was that indicated nor was it mentioned by myself. In my opinion, I feel fighters can be incredibly powerful for the ability to be ready at the drop of a hat, as in Divine magics typically can elevate you to a solid fighter style of base stats and beyond, however it also requires preparation and planning on the part of when to use that divine power or favor or might etc.. While my main ( a fighter WM) requires one button and you almost need to roll a save vs death(Sorta) So I believe you have mistaken what my intention was.

Given that your original comment was "Hey why make any change at all there are already too many mages on the server" I think that I read over your intention accurately - at least, at the time, it appeared that you didn't want any further changes made to magery because any change would only further add to their diceplay versatility, and thus contribute to the further proliferation of mages in general. Or, at least, that's what I was able to read given the single line.

While casting your skill checks and rolling your dice to prove you have a skill, the rogue can just as easily be using his skills in spot and search which he took the time to max to find and disarm the trap two feet away from the Mage of whatever sort. I think the point here is everything has something that could be improved upon, and party play is what makes the IC narrative that much better. A Trap In front of a wizard who isn't skilled in removing traps may have all the knowledge of the trap in the world but that doesn't mean he can successfully remove it without dying and or taking a major loss of HP. Perhaps while your casting detect magic the same rogue is using his skills in search to track down a clue left by said "murderer" and find another way to implicate them rather then solely relying on magic, because not everything in a fantasy world is caused by magic(most stuff is though)

I think this only re-enforces my point - the only thing that the rogue can do is be a second warm body to perform a skill that the mage could have simply taken an epic dip and a skill focus feat to be just as good at doing, if not better because he has access to some magical item that grants him Rogue's Cunning or can cast Clairvoyance himself. The purpose of his existence is to do the thing our wizard can do, while the wizard is doing something else, but in a shorter amount of time, with less windup and preparation. Let us not forget that it's very easy to swap in for a +30 skill gloves (or perhaps a hat would be more appropriate in this case, depending) and get functionally a full class build's worth of investment into any given skill, possibly even more so on top of your existing skills - and of course there is the literal "Find Traps" spell, which one can then simply throw some disposable level one summon at from a distance. But, again, this is drifting back into diceplay and away from roleplaying. Truly, I find stock rogues one of the most limited, narratively, in that the great majority of roguish archetypes lead you toward being little more than a petty thief and a scoundrel unless you take the class for its diceplay benefits and stray from the actual fluff foundation of the class.

As I said in previous posts and in hind-sight my goal wasn't to bash you nor the thought of once again elevating an already quite powerful class but to step back a moment, and to think about what is the best for server health and new players and old players alike. Is that to have everyone vying for the same gear and or builds? Or does diversity in builds and character concepts enrich the environment? Does this mean to make more powerful builds more powerful? Or perhaps focus on the classes which in some ways may be lacking as seen on a few other threads on here. Granted my comment was ~slightly~ trollish and wasn't exactly meant to derail your thread but if a single line did that in of itself has implications.

Wasn't my thread, but thank you for your discretion. However, to address your remarks - Ultimately as the server gets more popular, there will only ever be so much gear. There will only ever be so much room for any given player to stretch their arms. As it stands, any further changes to help diversify the niche a given class is able to fill - because, be honest with yourself and tell me that someone takes spell focuses that aren't Evocation, Conjuration, Illusion, and Aburation for any reason aside the begrudging realization that it fits their concept better despite the lack of benefit. I think that, at the very least, giving a reason to take the Transmutation focus at all would allow new and interesting concepts to flourish given the smallest ounce of care toward people who want to play out those concepts.

Yes, I'll agree that your comment was fairly inflammatory and probably designed to be. But, again, these thoughts have been in the back of my mind - why people despise mages so, why people complain about them, wanting them nerfed and changed, and yet paradoxically everyone also plays aggressively magical characters and reaps the fruit of the very thing they kvetch about. In a way I thought that this was openly musing about the topic, and feel that perhaps this might help someone to view, in some small way.

[VashO_o]

I See you can find traps and use gloves to imitate the skills of a rogue. Which furthers the point why give them even more powers? With this thought in mind it gave me a new line of thinking removing the fey familiar, this gives more to a class that already has so little. I’ve played near every class in the game and by far the most fun can be had on a melee and or rogue style class.Setting traps road blocks robbery vandalism sure a wizard can do that but shouldn’t they be doing things seeing into the depths of the weave? Would a scholarly wizard really focus their lives on such trivial skills? Sullying their hands with the work of what would be considered peasants?I question to the depths you have played a rogue I can’t speak to that as I don’t know your or your characters I don’t find being an omnipotent being as fun as someone who does rely on others and building a group of people, that is what increases narrative and brings roleplay to new levels. Not soloing the world. Dice play and role play are near one in the same, it’s the separation in characters and backgrounds which gives depth to the world. And yeah I did also see you weren’t the OP an over sight on my end. This server makes it difficult for higher levels to want to party thus your mind set I feel, and that should change so all classes are valued for their own individual prowess.

[ExperimentAlpha]

I See you can find traps and use gloves to imitate the skills of a rogue. Which furthers the point why give them even more powers? With this thought in mind it gave me a new line of thinking removing the fey familiar, this gives more to a class that already has so little. I’ve played near every class in the game and by far the most fun can be had on a melee and or rogue style class.Setting traps road blocks robbery vandalism sure a wizard can do that but shouldn’t they be doing things seeing into the depths of the weave? Would a scholarly wizard really focus their lives on such trivial skills? Sullying their hands with the work of what would be considered peasants?

Just because rogues only do one thing conceptually doesn't mean other classes have to do only one thing conceptually. Consider, if you will, a down-and-out mage who was perhaps a bit too uncouth to attend the academy - be he from ignoble birth or perhaps his low Charisma stat actually came to bite him in the rear. Of course, his studies were not nearly complete, his knowledge of the Art stunted and kludged together from what remaining notes he was able to spare. But, like all men, one must eat, and sometimes desperation forces us all to make decisions we may regret. Thus, he put his lot in with a group of unsavory individuals - becoming one of the very road bandits you mentioned, ensorcelling travelers into a magebound slumber while his allies pilfer the contents of their caravan. That's perfectly within the means of a first through third level character, and frankly more interesting by miles than the stuffy I'm-better-than-you wizard archetype we've all seen played out over and over.

I question to the depths you have played a rogue I can’t speak to that as I don’t know your or your characters I don’t find being an omnipotent being as fun as someone who does rely on others and building a group of people, that is what increases narrative and brings roleplay to new levels. Not soloing the world. Dice play and role play are near one in the same, it’s the separation in characters and backgrounds which gives depth to the world. And yeah I did also see you weren’t the OP an over sight on my end. This server makes it difficult for higher levels to want to party thus your mind set I feel, and that should change so all classes are valued for their own individual prowess.

Fun fact, my current 'main' is an assassin, and the character I'm pulling together will be a shadowdancer. :^)

I agree that building up a group of people to adventure with you is what brings that joyous spice to roleplaying that has us so very hooked on the nature of the thing. Ironically, mages do that better too. I would need both hands to count how many times I had to grab my friend to get people to go adventuring with me - because they knew he could cast Haste - when asking alone would seem like it was pulling teeth because all I provided by myself was a fairly durable body with a low damage ceiling.

I find it curious that you state that the separation of what's on your character sheet and how you roleplay your character adds depth to the world, then insist just slightly above that wizards ought be played as hook-nosed nobility who daren't dirty their hands with the work of the lowly peasantry, harrumph!

Ultimately though, I would be curious - how would you go about changing the mundane classes only to help further define their roles? Note, I am only asking for you to describe changes made to the mundane classes - you cannot simply say "Rogues aren't cool, make everything worse until rogues are better than them". Crab pot mentality when it comes to game design only leads to garbage fires like League of Legends.

[VashO_o]

Just because rogues only do one thing conceptually doesn't mean other classes have to do only one thing conceptually. Consider, if you will, a down-and-out mage who was perhaps a bit too uncouth to attend the academy

I have played a uncouth wizard such as this, crazed and deranged and he didn't go the road bandit route, which certainly you can say one could go that route but have you ever seen one? I haven't You see many more "pompous" types of wizards then anything else so you can say sure they can be something else, however from all my years playing this or that they do tend to fit inside a relatively singular mold.

Fun fact, my current 'main' is an assassin, and the character I'm pulling together will be a shadowdancer. :^)

I agree that building up a group of people to adventure with you is what brings that joyous spice to roleplaying that has us so very hooked on the nature of the thing. Ironically, mages do that better too. I would need both hands to count how many times I had to grab my friend to get people to go adventuring with me - because they knew he could cast Haste - when asking alone would seem like it was pulling teeth because all I provided by myself was a fairly durable body with a low damage ceiling.

I find it curious that you state that the separation of what's on your character sheet and how you roleplay your character adds depth to the world, then insist just slightly above that wizards ought be played as hook-nosed nobility who daren't dirty their hands with the work of the lowly peasantry, harrumph!

Ultimately though, I would be curious - how would you go about changing the mundane classes only to help further define their roles? Note, I am only asking for you to describe changes made to the mundane classes - you cannot simply say "Rogues aren't cool, make everything worse until rogues are better than them". Crab pot mentality when it comes to game design only leads to garbage fires like League of Legends.

I think rogues are awesome personally, given the access to the skills they posses, we made a comment about a singular ability but rogues are far more then disarming traps. Anything and everything involving the art of subterfuge can be at their disposal, I didn't state to make a wizard worse, I simply said to make rogues more valuable by giving more a reason to play them. This doesn't take away from the wizard it just means he has to enable others. Which as you've stated the wizard can do so many things he really doesn't need to, aside from maybe a meat shield type from time to time. I too enjoyed finding someone to be that role with my wizards and also with my main a WM I needed that wizard in my life to make my life icly easier. And changing them to further define their roles isn't always needed, sometimes its more ability within their world for the value they posses to be fully embraced, more locks more chests more reason for their being. Wizards had a ton of great stuff going on, do they really need to be made even better as was suggested in the previous post?

In short - To revitalize a class such as some of the more mundane ones plots and quests more in tune with them could be initiated, more locks and traps and chests when bashed do not open. Something which could require. I don't feel like mechanical changes are always the solution.

[VashO_o]

In a rough conclusion, I'm not tryin to say mages aren't boss (specifically wizards/sorc) as they are incredibly powerful. They have epic spells summons more skill points(wizards) then most every class, can summon a pixy capable of unlocking anything on the mod, mind control time stopping the list goes on. Im not against any of these abilities of the wizard either however (save maybe the pixy cuz cmon!) The reason for my initial comment in the OP was solely to say what was said. They don't need more power when they already have access to everything.

[Astrudai]

There are three things here that I feel irresistibly compelled to address. Firstly:

... while the Wizard starts casting Detect Magic and any number of other information-gathering magics.

... They're called divinations. If you had any sense of magic whatsoever, you'd know that. Silly mundane-player.

Secondly:

Thank you for taking the time to read. I know I can be aggressively long-winded at times, and people willing to tolerate that are a mercy.

I know the feeling. I tend to be long-winded as well. It's something I'm working on. If it makes you feel any better, this was an interesting read. I admit I put it off because it got so long so fast, but now that I've read it, I don't regret doing so.

Thirdly:

Fun fact, my current 'main' is an assassin, and the character I'm pulling together will be a shadowdancer. :^)

Hey, if you're putting together a shadowdancer, we'd love to have you by the Academy sometime! Suffice it to say... the class is not nearly as mundane as you might think it is, and I know beyond a shadow of a doubt - heh, get it? Shadow? I crack myself up... - that you will find some fun rp there.