A test run, player help needed.

[Dovesong]

Okay guys. With the removal of the Form Feedback thread, I sat and put my brain to work. I'll warn you this is gonna be a fairly long read, but I hope to make it worth it in the end, and improve our home here.

It's clear that a few things are true:
1.) Something in Amia needs to change. If we want to see population go up, if we want to have more people and more events and more fun, SOMETHING needs to change.
2.) Not everyone agrees with what that "something" is, or may be.
3.) There is, whether we like it or not, and irrespective of reason, a history of distrust between the playerbase and the DMs.

Hi. I'm Cat. I am a recovering asshole.

Those of you who don't know me, you don't know my story or my history here. I feel it's incredibly important to this, so I'm gonna lay my cards out (mostly) on the table.

For several years I was a player here. I went both ways between being really good and being probably the biggest asshole this server had to offer. I'm not going to sugarcoat it - when my feelings are hurt, I lash out. I've gotten that muchly under control in the last decade, but between a kneejerk temper, a nasty streak a mile wide, and an unhealthy attachment to the game, I was not a lot of fun.

I was permanently banned in....I think 2013? Ish? And while I, both as a player and a DM, don't disagree with that action *now*, you best believe I did then, because of one main fact: I had no idea it was coming. None. As a long-time DM over a couple of different servers, I still disagree with *that part* of it.

Now, you may say to yourself, "Cat, if you know you were being an asshole how could this have been a surprise?" and you'd be right. But without warnings, we can all overlook our faults, and I'm no different.

Time passes. I grew, and learned. People from Arelith, namely Kuma, Hunter, and Jinx, absolutely rode my ass to get me to stop being a dick. I became a 20 RPR player there. Then a 30. Then I became a DM, then Head DM. I lost that because I am not shy about sharing my opinions, and if you're toxic, I'll say so. I'm not sorry. It was absolutely understandable from the admin side, but I don't regret my actions, because people were being hurt. And that information was only shared because I banned someone who started a RL hate campaign against another DM. Not sorry there either. And I'd do it again.

Why am I telling you all of this? Because I want the players here to see where I'm coming from, and hopefully where I want us to head to.

I have always seen a side of....not necessarily nepotism, but favouritism here. That's a long-standing accusation, and while it's not always accurate, it often is. What I am asking from the community is a smidge of trust. When I say I was NOT a staff favourite, I cannot stress how deeply I mean that. I appealed my ban, and people who are even now on the team were people I targeted and hurt. I was allowed back, probationarily, ONLY because one DM who had remained my friend over the decade swore her own honor on my actions. These were not my friends. Nor was I theirs. But I was open and honest about who I was, and how I had changed. And it's my hope that I'm continuing in that trend. I don't need to agree with decisions to not be an asshole about it.

So yes, I am asking for a little trust from you all to me, as both a player and as a DM. While the Feedback Form had relevance, I don't feel it did what it could have done.

I want us to have constructive conversation, because I hear and see the problems and hurt. I want to let the players have some kind of agency in THEIR world. Yes, this is a volunteer position, and yes, DMs are technically "the boss"....but I fail to see what good it is to lord over an empty sandbox. Call me crazy.

I'm not saying anything that's asked, I can make happen. What I am saying is that I would like players who have specific complaints or specific thoughts of how progress can be made to reach out to me. I'm not asking this so I can judge you. Trust me, I got no dog in that particular fight. I believe the playerbase here may be more willing to hold a discourse with someone who has walked both sides of this road, and who, like them, wants to see this place grow and flourish as we once did. And I believe the playerbase is intelligent, and overwhelmingly made of decent people who just want to have fun.

So, if you're willing, and I hope you are, help me help you. I'm not one of the golden children. I'm not anything fancy. I'm just someone who gives a shit about this server and the people on it, and I want it to be the best it can be.

Feel free to send me a PM here, or hit me up on Discord. I'm open to any conversation so long as the intent behind it is honest, forward-moving progress.

[Pinkhaml86]

You know what cat. I kindof just like that openness and attempt at trust building. I think I'll follow suite.

Hey guys. I'm Logan.

I've been here on amia off and on for 12 ish years. I've been apart of Many factions and friend groups. And I've been banned....twice, though neither permanent like dove.

I wasn't always a happy accent throwing, chaos sewing player / dm. At one point I was part of a large movement of dm hate, favoritism calling, vitriol spewing chaos. Which was one of the times I was banned. I had fights, big fights with the dm team. Team members who are still team members and or large parts of our community.

I left amia, tried arelith, tried thane, tried uhhh....cormyr? Tried other games, couldn't get into them really. Came back to amia under a different login for a while to just stay low, but then that was all found out.

I still had a bunch of resentment for some stuff, but I decided instead of fighting the system I'd try to fix it. So I applied as a dm.....and got shut down hard.....so I waited and calmed myself, then I applied as a tester and was givin a shot. Within a few months I applied as a dm again and was accepted.

I'm ngl the first thing I did when I was givin dm access is search and search and search. I read up on everything written about me or my character or my friends characters or favoritism and easy passes on random requests etc but the honest fact is, there wasn't any. I even went into each dms special area on the server looking for op stuff or easy passes, couldn't find anything.

I have no clue where I'm going with this and definitely fell into a tangent there. But anyways. I'm Logan, I'm still a team member, and I joined the team as an absolutly neutral party between existing team members and players who feel scorned or attacked. Because I felt that way, and I diddnt have a reason too

[Toupzy]

Hi all im Toupzy and im a newb and new player love it here so i don't want to be involved or know about the drama or whatever happened i just like to rp my chars cheers!

[Dovesong]

Thanks guys. I needed a good natured laugh. XD

[Jes]

If this thread looks like a joke to you, then I don't really know what to say.

[Pinkhaml86]

Well I wasn't intending my addition to be a joke, because it wasn't. But light hearted yes. Because that's what I am, light hearted. If you have questions about the feedback forum I suggest you read the statement in the feedback forum. This is here now for the reasons that dove explained. I just added an explanation of who I am aswell.

[Elorathall]

If you want to genuinely know what should be changed, don't ask the people that are playing. Ask those that left why they did.

[Dovesong]

If you want to genuinely know what should be changed, don't ask the people that are playing. Ask those that left why they did.

Those that left are included. I'm currently speaking to a few of them.

[Dovesong]

So was the real thread that just got removed replaced with a joke one?

Pretty sure I made my thoughts clear prior. If your only contribution is being a shit, do us both a favour and don't.

It's very easy to not be any part of a solution and talk down on those who do try, but I promise you any further comments of the sort will be removed. I'm disinterested in your sniping and clumsy, backhanded insults, and I'm not going to tolerate it.

Help, or quietly stand aside. Thanks.

[ZoltanTheRed]

If you want to genuinely know what should be changed, don't ask the people that are playing. Ask those that left why they did.

Can you elaborate on this? Why not ask those that still play?

[Elorathall]

Because of survivorship bias.

The people that are (still) playing today do so because whatever is wrong with the server/community, it doesn’t hit them badly enough to warrant leaving. Or in other words, they still perceive that the value they gain from playing > the cost of doing so (time, emotional investment,..). As the flaws expand or get worse, they might start dropping off as well, but for now they are still there. Those who left already saw this flip to value < cost. Seeing as the cost is overall the same for most players, that means at some point the value of playing degraded enough that they left.

In other words - and in terms of the famous “where to armour the airplane” story — don’t focus on those that are still flying, look to those that “crashed”. What is it that ultimately took hem away? Because it may very well take those still flying away as well, sooner or later.

[ZoltanTheRed]

Ah, that's a pretty sensible way to put it. Thank you.

[Pinkhaml86]

That's....ya thats a very good way to look at the whole thing.

[The Gentleman]

Then becomes a fight between the players who have stopped playing but haven't left and the dm team, which leaves burn out for both sides. killing the server even further.

[Opustus]

A great poast, Dove!

Despite the recent conflict, I don't think Amia as a PW is especially prone to it or that this time around has been especially bad. Amia has always had conflicts like this, and so have other servers. I don't mean to gloss over the hurt that people have endured, I empathise with that a great deal and think it's always wrong and unnecessary, but I'm trying to offer perspective. It's a super social game and emotions are difficult. Amia is maybe unique in the sense that its people can get really close to each other and become really reliant on the community, which is maybe what makes some of the conflicts so hurtful. I don't know any other server where so many deep friendships or relationships would have been wrought. Insofar as RL relations between players are considered, other servers have felt distant to me.

As for the loss of players, I'd point to more common things for main causes: it's a tired old ass game, its player base has matured and people have less time and interest to play, bigger servers attract more people because there are more people to interact with. The feedback is often on point, but there's only so much we can do to stave off the entropy. There are many ways to improve Amia but only so much time. I hope we would just focus on the fun aspects of the game, be friends, and stop taking *the game* aspect so seriously all the time (the friendships in the background are more valuable and extremely serious), while respecting that people are fragile and that emotions are difficult and that when we act out we probably do it from both impulse and some horrible deep-seated dread and self-concern and that we should always try to afford each other the courtesy of the benefit of the doubt and just in general try to be as nice and understanding as we can towards each other.

Individually we are weak, like a single twig, but as a bundle we form a mighty faggot!

[The Gentleman]

So here is an experience i had with the dm team after months of dms ignoring me even after telling me they would help me, and also what caused me to leave amia. Once bags was placed in, I finally got a response. The transcript is upside down after the initial comment.

After looking around I would like to engage with the npc in conversation in an attempt to enroll some of the kobolds of the warren into his service as apprentices. He is the master smith of Csytana and locateted in the trade hall where he is in the central interiors.


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Re: Speaking to Artificer TheoricQuote Bag of Felt

 Sent: Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:16 am
by Bag of Felt

Can forward all this to Kobra to see what he says. He and I have talked about it, but I have no problem letting him see all this.

Re: Speaking to Artificer TheoricQuote The Gentleman

 Sent: Sun Sep 25, 2022 7:18 pm
by The Gentleman

I get kobold adventurers are rare, however it just frusterates me when its "not gonna happen" which kills the entire thread and makes people give up. Its not even about adventure at this point, but more about the greater good of the tribe.

For one) Kurchin desires the use of the deurgar forge, which requires two steps. Training a smith, and acquiring tools, based on my notes from speaking to him IG Friday. Kurchin is the all-watcher of the tribe and would dictate this is a function which is good for the tribe as a whole.

Which brings me to part two, where because we cannot have this discussion IG, i cannot counter, use the plentiful points in persuade i have, or even do anything further with this thread of action. Which makes me ask if everything I do will just be walled in, why even try here. I can't interact with the information I am given in any meaningful way.

Re: Speaking to Artificer TheoricQuote charles1810

 Sent: Sun Sep 25, 2022 4:25 pm
by charles1810

Want to clarify this is not a "Lore Flex" this is just stating how things are. Kolbold adventures are extremely rare, they live and die relatively unless enslaved within their warden wanting very little to do with the outside world unless threatened at which point they are extremely cowardly and often retreat ground. The idea and mindset that randomly they will want to leave their warden to go to a place they likely have no knowledge about is not very likely to happen. Your welcome to try, but would involve a great deal of work to gain the trust enough for them to even remotely decided such actions be a good idea.

Re: Speaking to Artificer TheoricQuote The Gentleman

 Sent: Sun Sep 25, 2022 3:58 pm
by The Gentleman

Nah, I understand the dm team's verdict. May you enjoy your server for how it is, I will be seeking my own elsewhere.

Re: Speaking to Artificer TheoricQuote Bag of Felt

 Sent: Sun Sep 25, 2022 3:50 pm
by Bag of Felt

The Gentleman wrote: ↑well we haven't even got that far yet. your desire to flex lore on me over actual rp is most concerning. may i have this discussion?

The rp has to be based on the lore. Otherwise you are operating in an alternate universe.

If Gri came to the master smith, he would say, "well, we would have to craft tools for the size of a kobold first, which I am willing to do for a price. Send over your potential apprentices for me to assess."

After that, Gri would approach the kobolds in the warren, and be met with, "you want me to go where and do what? You are kidding me!"

Feel free to ask any of the other DMs if it would go differently.

Re: Speaking to Artificer TheoricQuote The Gentleman

 Sent: Sun Sep 25, 2022 2:12 pm
by The Gentleman

well we haven't even got that far yet. your desire to flex lore on me over actual rp is most concerning. may i have this discussion?

Re: Speaking to Artificer TheoricQuote Bag of Felt

 Sent: Sun Sep 25, 2022 10:23 am
by Bag of Felt

Request Handlers wouldn't handle this. They are helping to get DMIG into the game.

The kobold have no interest in other races. They wouldn't send their citizens ANYWHERE to get training from a non-kobold.

While gnomes and halflings often integrate into other
races’ societies, kobolds turn inward. The kobold deity
Kurtulmak (see page 48) doesn’t allow such fraternization.
Kobolds have their own culture and a set of deeply introspective traditions.
To generalize kobolds as xenophobic is misleading. They
are perfectly happy to be overlooked by others, having
disdain for other races and preferring to conduct their
activities in secret.

Races of the Dragon pages 40-41

[Raua]

Took me a while to read the upside-down transcript, but I’ll offer my 2-cent interpretation here.

Essentially, a player was left disgruntled and discouraged after a long period of receiving little to no communication from the DM team about their proposed RP direction. When they eventually did get a response, it was simply “No, this wouldn’t happen.” Which is understandably, a frustrating thing to hear. Being told no is never fun. The dm team did have valid reasons for saying no to this particular instance. HOWEVER, what did not happen in this instance, and may help in the future, is offering alternatives. Charles elaborated on the reasoning for the team’s initial response of no, and hinted that there would be an allowed attempt, but also didnt offer an alternative course of action.—offering alternatives in this situation is incredibly valuable, otherwise it tends to leave the impression that you’re simply shutting down their idea, which is not a good outcome.

In situations like this, it’s usually best to try and figure out what the desired effect/outcome is, and come up with the closest approximation by the current lore/setting accuracy standards.

What was the goal? Let the Kobolds of the Warren learn a new skill that will ultimately improve their home. Specifically to make better weapons to protect themselves with, as well as create an opportunity for interesting RP in an otherwise forgotten about area of the server. (Correct me if Im wrong, I have been known to read things incorrectly. Damn dyslexia)

Maybe this could have been an opportunity to run a plot in which the player has to convince the Kobolds to go along with this idea. Maybe the smith NPC could be persuaded to send a different apprentice to the warren and teach there?

Regardless, there’s value in examining a situation that caused a player to decide to leave.

/endpeanutgalleryobservation

[Jes]

I'm afraid much of the posted conversation was left out and the full context was not provided here. As is usually the case when someone wants to make a point. I'd really rather not dredge this up yet again from a player who openly insulted the team AND the playerbase as a whole. The team did offer alternatives and tried to work with them. They refused to listen to anything but the exact path they wanted.

[Raua]

That’s unfortunate ):

[Dunecat]

Unfortunately, full context is always missing. Even if individuals in question are completely certain that they have full and total understanding of an issue, as there are always aspects that are overlooked, missed, forgotten.

In the particular case that is being discussed, arises a question: "Which warren?" There are two fully fledged warrens, and at least one smaller kobold warren. Each has separate history (in the latter case, it might not yet be written), including history of PC interaction. I assume that warren that is being discussed is the Quagmire Warren.

Quagmire Warren had numerous interactions with PCs, at least two PC leaders (Thesekar "Blackfang" & a black dragon disciple, whose name sadly escapes me at the moment). Both PCs in positions of authority, and other involved kobold PCs, had extensive interaction with outside world. It included trade, learning new skills from other (not-kobold) PCs, and improvements to the Warren (such as a warm pool, based on arcane magic). Thus there are precedents of this particular warren fruitfully interacting with non-kobold communities.

It also seems symptomatic that general lore arguements are used to trump particular, local lore; uniquely "Amian" developments.

[TheImpregnableDerp]

Accusations of gatekeeping and favoritism will continue as long as we have a policy that some people can do some things, and other people can't do those things.

Another server that has gained a lot of popularity over the past year basically has the policy that, "If one person can play it, anyone can play it." Of course, that server does not have centaurs or near as many exotic races, but they do have a few winged characters walking around, or even flying, and most of them did not even have to apply or anything for it.

That is a very stark contrast to Amia. Despite that other server letting people fly without apps, and the fact you can buy potions of flying at the place where you spawn in, you barely ever see anyone flying or anyone with wings. It's almost as if serious role players will respect the lore and not just put wings on anything if given the opportunity. However, we are not given that much trust here as players, and in return the DM's are not receiving much trust either. I feel this is the root cause for a lot of bitterness that has festered between players and DM's here.

Of course, I can also understand where the DM team is coming from, the majority of characters in a persistent world should be mundane, normal humans, dwarves, elves, halflings, etc. Not a bunch of animal hybrids, dragon disciples, and undead constructs. So how do we reach a compromise here, where players feel they are trusted and given a fair chance and not gate kept out of all the fun stuff, without further becoming the server full of "winged freaks" and cutebold cuddlers?

I would recommend implementing some kind of reward system similar to what Arelith has but without forcing us to delete our favorite characters to get rewards. We already have a fully automated reward system in the form of Dream Coins, why not add an extra exotic race catalogue to the Request section of the forum, and just charge an exorbitant amount for the most exotic races? Want to be a Green Dragon Disciple Monk/Ranger named Tommy who does Circle Kick? Okay then, pay the 500 dream coin fee and you're good to go. If people think you are role playing it wrong or badly they can just not role play with you. If you do such a bad job it can't be ignored by the player base at large maybe THEN the DM's can give you a stern talking to about dragon disciple lore, but players wouldn't simply be met with "No you can't do that." only to see a DM or one of their buddies playing the exact same concept next week.

[Pinkhaml86]

The exotic races / classes request system is to gage if a player knows the lore of what they are requesting. It's easier for the team to see if people are committed to the character via pre-request than to have to chase around the green ranger and watch if they know how to play the dragon dagger or not.

Some call it gatekeepers, but I call it not having to be rp-police.

The request format is super freaking easy. It's literally laid out for you, shows exactly what the team wants to see to insure you actually did some research. What the team saw most of the time was people actually going and deleting the format, writing their request in one giant runon sentence, and missing 60% of the information the team wants to see.

We know his name is Tommy, we know his race and build, great. But then we get a 1 paragraph sentence that just says "ritta gave me flute knife and now I have powers and can summon construct and fight good people and establish dominance on island and win lots"

Writing a request is easy. I've done it. And I'm barely literate and I honestly have to ask jes 90% of the time where to find things on the forums or internet because I don't know how to use search functions properly.

[Pinkhaml86]

P.s. ask for help.

The team is support staff. That was the entire point of the player faction / settlement leadership initiative. WE DONT WANT TO RUN PLACES. The staff is here to support players doing what they want to do, play. Winya wants to build up walls and defenses? Dope, send it. They will lay out the material list for things and collect as you go. Put your request in on the forums so that devs know what you want and where, and things will be checkmark off as it's done. The term "request" isn't really a permission slip when it comes to that anymore.

If people have issues writing requests reach out to the team. I'd gladly help someone write something out. Obviously I'm not going to do it for you, but I'll fornsure help with format and lore.

I want to see.people play what and how they want. But I'm not just going to open the flood gate and watch lore be washed away in the tidal wave.

[TheImpregnableDerp]

For someone to have 500 Dream Coins to spend that would have to mean they had spent at least or close to 500 hours on the server playing over a span of around 50 weeks. Even if a lot of that was spent AFK or chatting in discord I would think by that time most players would learn a thing or two about the lore of what they want to request, and I would think that the players who dedicate that kind of time to a small, niche server like this would be more inclined to care about lore anyways.

How often do we actually get new players who know nothing about role playing or D&D or Forgotten Realms lore? Do we really get one line silly requests and giant run-on sentence requests that often? Again, it seems like there is very little trust in players from the DM's to do the right things and follow the lore without them pre-emptively approving everything we do. You can say requests aren't permission slips, but when some people get turned down and others don't, they might as well be.

Personally I am not the type to request exotic races and stuff, my point is that trust goes both ways, if players cannot all be trusted with the same toys, then of course some of them are not going to trust the DM team when they say there is no favoritism. If something is so problematic for the lore that it can only be played in one or two very specific ways or else the whole story falls apart, maybe nobody should be playing it at all. If kobolds should be strictly depicted as reclusive and not having anything to do with other races, why are X, Y, and Z allowed to play cutebold bards who go hang out with other races and do stuff with them and are still regarded highly in kobold society- but yet A, B, and C can't do the same because of the lore?

If the goal is to keep exotic races and exceptional cases like this rare then I think locking it all behind a steeply expensive DC paywall would be enough to ensure the whole server doesn't all roll good aligned undead constructs or dragon disciple werepanther centaurs on the same day. I highly doubt anyone is going to spend a year's worth of DC's on a character that would get them banned anyways. The system would be mostly automated and leave little room for interpreting bias among staff.

Heck you can even still ask for a short bio and flat out reject anything too stupid, and it would cut down the number of requests you have to deal with and number of exotic characters in general, and you could just tell any new players asking these things the cost instead of digging at reasons to reject them and possibly hurting their feelings. Instead of new players coming away with the sour taste of "Staff rejected me because they are mean and biased and unfair." they would say "Darn I can't play the cool thing I want cuz I am broke, I better play on the server every day so I can earn enough Dream coins!"

I fail to see how this would be anything but positive for the server or increase the DM's workload when it comes to policing RP that much. But I have never been a DM on here so maybe I am wrong. Also I appreciate you got the tongue in cheek Green Ranger reference. RIP JDF.

[TheImpregnableDerp]

This is how primates react when they perceive something as unfair.

I am obviously a primate because I react much the same way.

I think my dog might be part primate also.

What I'm getting at is- long as Amia continues to rely on a system that allows interpretations of bias, discrimination, etc. then there will be cries of bias, discrimination etc. Players are primates and do not like to be treated unfairly. I'm fine with cucumber if that's all that is on the menu, but if that monkey over there gets a grape for his rock, I want a grape for my rock too. And I don't want to hear about how my rock is inferior or how the other monkey's rock is older and thus more deserving of the grape than mine.

Players don't like to be told that their RP is of less value or wrong. Even if it clearly is. There is also the matter of how do you even measure the quality of something as abstract as role play in a fair and objective manner, without being influenced by personal biases or subjective opinions? That's a trick question, you can't, and you never will, so stop trying. DC's are at least an objective measure of time spent on the server and I'm willing to trust someone who has spent 1000 hours on the server knows enough about dragon disciples, kobolds, centaurs, or whatever to play one if that's what they really want to play.

My idea would in theory also increase the number of mundane racial characters around since new players would actually stick around and play humans, dwarves, hins, etc. to earn DC's for the exotic races they want to play rather than just quitting and spreading the message of perceived injustice further. Of course, an exotic race DC catalog is not going to fix all the server's problems, the same sort of thinking needs to be applied to other features of the server. The staff has made some strides in some areas and I commend them for that. We need to entice people into playing actively though, give them things that will keep them on the server, goals to work towards, etc.

I know in the end it is impossible to please everyone and that staff are only human. But I hope some of these ideas can be taken seriously and applied for the betterment of the server in some way.

[Opustus]

I agree with Derp's analysis and the proposed fix. I think the chance of players making some silly characters is a far lesser problem than the underlying issue of trust and distrust about the request process, and I think it's also correct not to identify it as a problem with the player base but ultimately as a problem with the server policy. Because even if it were a problem with the player base... how would anyone even try to fix that? Assuring everyone there's no conspiracy, please trust us, remain calm for the umpteenth time, hoping it goes through? Meanwhile, the policy is something we can easily change, see: Derp's suggestion of DC costs for exotic races. I mean, I largely disagree with the claim that there is a bias or that the unfairness resulting from a minor bias would be a problem whatsoever, but I also understand why people think there is a notable bias and why it keeps engendering controversy. Also, if people did make exceedingly silly characters, I think the same policy we have for banning silly names would apply here.

Btw, Arelith has a system where players need to be verified by DMs as decent, sensible, trustworthy roleplayers by DMs to become eligible for exotic races. It works beautifully by keeping the bar pretty low and actively seeking out new players and communicating with them like so "Hi, I've watched you go and you seem like a solid roleplayer. Here's a token that makes you eligible for exotic races for dream coins!" Unverified players could also be verified by other players, which should be relatively easy to implement with DC Wands. For example, 3 endorsements by verified players would verify an unverified player.

[Jes]

I'm not sure how I feel about this because it just moves the problems to a different step in the process. Instead of the potential for abuse being up front, it'll be after they've made and become attached to the character in question. If we make this change because players can't trust DMs, why would players suddenly trust DMs with actively policing their RP and being able to take away a character they've now made and spent all those DCs on?

I don't think moving the goalpost is the way to solve a trust problem, and in fact sounds awful for the potential issues where players will feel like they're still facing being told their RP is wrong or not good enough, but now it's after they're trying to enjoy a character they put together.

The only policy change that would actually remove the "threat" of DMs judging/policing RP is to do away with the standards of RP and lore that Amia has (almost) always had.

I think the reason the "standards" have existed so critically for so long is because of what Amia used to be a million years ago, when players did in fact make lore-breaking characters that turned the server ridiculous. Where you could walk through Cordor and come across a full blooded demon macking on a full blooded celestial, while their full blooded dragon shared lover would be waiting their turn.

Perhaps the fear that it would become a joke again has persisted for too long and it's been "the way" for long enough that the team just doesn't see any other way to do it. I haven't played on any other servers so I don't know what it's like in other places. But I do know that it took me eight years and many request attempts to finally be allowed a full dragon PC (before I was ever a DM).

I understand why I had to be so thorough and detailed in showing I understood the lore and could play it correctly, but I also know how incredibly frustrating and demoralizing it can be to be told no, repeatedly, for a character concept I loved and KNEW I could do right if the team just trusted me for five seconds. I'm just stubborn and kept trying over and over until I was able to make the bar.

But I do think that this process is a bit too arduous, time consuming, and daunting to any player who can't write a freaking novel.



If a policy is going to change, then it can't come with the caveat that the special characters can just be policed and/or taken away. That will only move the potential for abuse to another step in the process. What we need to do is, as a community, decide whether we want to remove the strict RP/Lore standards that we have now. That isn't saying that we do away with the quality of RP we give to each other, but rather that we stop with the RP policing. Full stop. Let people play what they want. Heck, let them rebuild however they want, maybe on a set timer. (The DC cost for these things is still a good idea, though.) Maybe it's time to fully automate ALL requests and stop wasting our time on paperwork that's only really acting as a barrier and an increasingly apparent burden to the Team. This could apply to Dev decisions, too. DMs don't really need to be so involved in that. I want to see DMs hyper focus on being storytellers for players - not miniature admins who have to worry about every little thing. Amia DMs try to be too much all at once, and it's no wonder they burn out at the speed of light.

When there's no more bureaucratic paperwork and everything can be done in game, maybe the overall player experience can be improved because DMs will have all the time in the world to devote to running stories for the players, instead of burning out on the overload of forum work.

[TheImpregnableDerp]

Thank you for the thoughtful response, I don't have time to respond to every bit of it right now, but will throw out a few ideas.

Playing on other servers might be a good way to get some ideas for making Amia better. Obviously no server is perfect or else we'd all be playing there, but some of them do a few things exceptionally well. Arelith is the best at having a huge open world sandbox where players can PVP and run settlements and stuff. C&D is better with DM/Player interactions and huge events. Not saying you should copy everything they do but maybe take a look and see what you like and don't like and how it could be applied to Amia.

Standards of RP usually end up being upheld by the players themselves rather than the DM's. Sure you can spend a year's worth of DC's to make a joke character but if nobody wants to play with you then what's the point? Arelith DM's wouldn't even intervene in the most egregious of character lore breaks I encountered, but in the end that just caused more RP and conflict to happen, because other players did not just let it slide or laugh it off. Such moments are teachable and can be learning experiences for players without DM's having to get involved. I have even seen on Amia where some new player did come up with a chicken headed character and just got told off OOC by the players for playing something they did not request. So I definitely believe what players we have are up to the task of upholding the lore and maintaining the integrity of the setting.

I don't think we have to throw away our standards for RP completely. But it would probably be better to just have a hard line catalog of what is acceptable to play and what isn't, instead of telling people they can request whatever they want then lecturing them when they request something dumb or impossible or telling them their request wasn't good enough. For example, are dragons acceptable to be player characters? What kind of restrictions should they have? How much DC's should they cost? If it's going to be such a problem with the lore and the standards to let anyone have a chance at it, just take it off the catalog. We don't have to RP dragons. But then, when people see you with your bronze dragon, of course some are going to be jealous or question the fairness of it. You are obviously a great role player and writer, but does that mean someone who isn't as skilled and talented shouldn't also be able to play a dragon? If the goal is just keep dragons rare (which I definitely agree with) I think a 1000 DC price tag which would take like 2 real life years to save up would suffice.

Disclaimers are also nice. Lets say I have played for 2 years, saved up 1000 dream coins, and now I want to make my overtalkative brass dragon PC. You can simply have a disclaimer in the Dragon section of the catalogue above their stats that says something like, "You must read about the Wyrmshadow Prophecy (here) and understand these alignment restrictions and never make out with a Chromatic Dragon blah blah blah and also u lay eggs." Obviously you don't have to post an entire Draconomicon but you can at least give them an idea of what to do and not to do with their new character. I think anyone who puts that much time and effort into playing a dragon would at least read the disclaimer and try to play the character seriously.

Lastly, cases of joke characters would probably be so few, I'm sure the DM team would be able to handle them once or twice a year when they do happen. Arelith has a massive player base with a small DM team and they are able to easily handle the few 5% reward characters people get on there. So don't let fear of players making mistakes or doing silly things get to you. If someone really just wants to be an ass and be disruptive, they can just make a human for that.

[Opustus]

Yeah, good points der, Jes. Maybe by "exceedingly silly" I meant cases like, I dunno, a lawful good demon, but I guess it just makes more sense to make demons only evil and impose similar limitations to other like cases (a hypothetical case where demons would be a selectable race; I haven't an inkling if they should or not).

It doesn't sound like a super difficult system to create, but the automatisation will prolly be a lot of work and require a dev who knows their stuff. But on a concept design level, it could work out a lot of different ways. One option I was considering today would be just to have categories and rarities. So e.g.

Category: body parts
Rarities: common 20 DCs, exotic 50 DCs, rare 100 DCs
Examples: tiefling horns and tails are exotic, aasimar wings are rare etc.

Category: abilities
Rarities: common 50 DCs, exotic 100 DCs, rare 200 DCs
Examples: faerie fire for feytouched is common, flight ability for winged PCs is exotic etc.

Category: races
Rarities: common 100 DCs, exotic 200 DCs, rare 500 DCs
Examples: Shadovar is common, half-dragon is exotic, good monster race is rare etc.

Categories: mounts, summon skin changes, custom RP items, etc. etc. etc.

These options would be the same for all, and if somebody wanted to suggest a new flavor to the mix, it would be considered by the DM team, and if approved be added to one of the brackets and be applicable for all?

Another possible source of conflict I have been considering is the DC payment for staff hours. We keep saying that the staff works on a voluntary basis, but most of us are probably sitting on a mountain or a hill of DCs from compensation for our work. And while I appreciate that it's nice to reward the team for their work and incentivise them to work more, it's also a bit false to simultaneously say we don't get paid. People value DCs differently, and I really don't give a rat's ass about them, but saying that to someone who values DCs for what they can get for them leaves the same sour taste in your mouth as a rich person pontificating to a bunch of normal poor people about how money doesn't make you happy while never enduring any financial hardship.

[Jes]

I could probably get behind a proper catalog with DC costs that players can purchase from in game. There'd need to be quite the big discussion on what to fully allow through it and what not to, and whether things should be grandfathered, for fairness, etc. Also would need to start a targeted talk about this to gauge others' thoughts.


I'm not sure I agree with the comparison with the staff DC incentives at all, though. The sometimes-monthly DC incentives for doing actual work that would normally pay boat loads in any software development position is barely a tip of the hat to the skills and sacrifices that devs make for the server. These skills are highly valuable in any industry and we're getting them for free, from many devs who barely have time to even play the game. Like, Mav put hundreds of hours into his Dev work, received plenty of DCs for his efforts, and didn't even play. He only ever used his DCs to pay for other players' requests, which is so sweet.

So is there a genuine problem with DC incentives for people who work on the server? Staff don't just get DCs for doing nothing. Incentives are paid out according to logs or actual evidence of activity.

A more apt comparison would be an overworked poor person making minimum wage but receiving gift certificates to the arcade, telling other poor people making minimum wage that the arcade isn't so bad.

No good comes of putting staff on a pedestal like that, Opustus. They are not billionaires among peasants.

[walnutboy]

So you're trading a perseved 'locking behind request' system for an actual 'locking behind having dcs to pay for it' system?

No offence intended but writing a request isn't hard and more readily doable. The system largely falls down when people don't want to put the effort in and feel they should be entitled to something. The unfairness people sense often comes when their request is turned down because it clashes with the world lore or they themselves take the attitude that a single line of text should be enough to let them have what they want... only to see someone else get something after providing far more.

A dc system brings the issue that unless you play, you can't pay which in itself will bring the same issues many say we have now... you'll be changing it up though by then excluding those who don't have the dcs to pay for something cool, which people will moan is unfair, restrictive and not how another server does it!

By at least having a request system you still have the chance to play something you are passionate about. Do I think the request system is perfect, no and at times it can appear to favour 'friends'. It took me 3 attempts to get my lycan, a lycan, approved back in the day which was very disheartening because someone (the same someone) always had an issue with it... and yet wouldn't say why. That is a person problem and not a system problem.
However, it is by and large a far fairer system in my mind than locking things behind the 'you must have dcs to play'. Not everyone sinks the time in to have endless dcs.

At times things should be questioned as to why they are in the world, the lore certainly needs tracking IF amia is staying true to the wider setting. Having someone randomly turn up playing something which flys in the face of on going or even long standing lore is game breaking and certainly makes it harder for players and dms to run things if such is unchecked.

Comparing Amia to other places is nice however it doesn't mean we have to take the same approach. I am curious why some who left for pastures new wish for Amia to become like other servers when they can (and have been happily) playing those other servers and if they can't play there, why is that, what stops them?

[TheImpregnableDerp]

I see no issue at all with staff receiving DC's for their time and effort, long as it is a comparable rate to what players would get for a similar amount of time and effort. I don't think anyone is going to get mad if a staff member spend 5-10 hours working on something to better the server on a Sunday and receives 10-20 dream coins or so for it. I don't have a clue what the current payment rate is but I imagine staff aren't just giving themselves hundreds of DC's for the bare minimum effort. So there shouldn't be any problems there. Some staff may already be sitting on 1,000 dream coins, but I'm sure there are ancient regular players with similar amounts, and it won't hurt to give them something to potentially spend those on.

So you're trading a perseved 'locking behind request' system for an actual 'locking behind having dcs to pay for it' system?

That is the idea, yes, because DC's are an objective measure of time and effort spent on the server.

No offence intended but writing a request isn't hard and more readily doable. The system largely falls down when people don't want to put the effort in and feel they should be entitled to something. The unfairness people sense often comes when their request is turned down because it clashes with the world lore or they themselves take the attitude that a single line of text should be enough to let them have what they want... only to see someone else get something after providing far more.

I could go on and dig up some examples of bare minimum effort requests being approved from "favored" players and then high effort requests being stonewalled until the person literally quits. If I do that though it will then be decried as pointing fingers and accusing others and such and people will just be mad at me. I would rather keep this discussion constructive than go the route of staff and players pointing fingers at each other accusing the other of favoritism or lack of effort. Lets just assume in good faith that staff aren't intentionally biased and that most players try to put in at least a bit of effort, shall we?

A dc system brings the issue that unless you play, you can't pay which in itself will bring the same issues many say we have now... you'll be changing it up though by then excluding those who don't have the dcs to pay for something cool, which people will moan is unfair, restrictive and not how another server does it!

I would argue that someone who hasn't spent time on the server playing as a human, elf, dwarf, hin, etc. probably shouldn't start out with an undead construct, a dragon disciple, or anything exotic like that. I don't see how it is anymore unfair if people are rewarded according to an objective measure of activity on the server as opposed to subjective reasoning from a handful of staff members. You point out that writing a request is not hard, well, neither is earning Dream Coins. I suspect new players would be a lot more stoked about increasing their NWN playtime on Amia if it meant they were eventually guaranteed a chance at playing the exotic thing other servers wouldn't allow. With the current system we just get new players showing up and requesting these things day 1 with NO IDEA about the server's specific lore and sometimes with little information on lore regardless of server, only to get denied. With the proposed system, by the time they got around to requesting these things, they would have had plenty of time to become acclimated to the server, learn it's specific lore, and probably do a better job with their request to begin with. Plus there will be less requests over all for staff to sift through, since they are no longer free and given out solely based on staff's discernment, but now have an considerably high cost of time and effort to them.

By at least having a request system you still have the chance to play something you are passionate about. Do I think the request system is perfect, no and at times it can appear to favour 'friends'. It took me 3 attempts to get my lycan, a lycan, approved back in the day which was very disheartening because someone (the same someone) always had an issue with it... and yet wouldn't say why. That is a person problem and not a system problem.
However, it is by and large a far fairer system in my mind than locking things behind the 'you must have dcs to play'. Not everyone sinks the time in to have endless dcs.

It's a person problem, but also a problem with the system, because the system is set up to rely on people, and people are flawed. Anyone can earn DC's, the cap is 10 per week, people who play two hours a day aren't getting any less DC's than the people who play six or eight hours a day. You can get one per day just for logging in, then you only need to gain 3 more from playtime to reach the weekly cap. That's very easy, easier than being asked to write a whole dang novel. And again, people SHOULD have to play the more mundane races for a while and get acclimated to the server, before they dip their toes into any exotic races and concepts. Not only does this increase the number of mundane characters and encourage active playing, it reduces staff's workload if every new player isn't immediately requesting a half dragon, half demon, half vampire for their first character.

At times things should be questioned as to why they are in the world, the lore certainly needs tracking IF amia is staying true to the wider setting. Having someone randomly turn up playing something which flys in the face of on going or even long standing lore is game breaking and certainly makes it harder for players and dms to run things if such is unchecked.

I agree, but having less super duper exotic and weird races being requested in the first place will cut back on the DM's workload, and allow them to hopefully spend more time doing that in-game as opposed to on the forums. I am not asking to open the floodgates, rather I am asking to change it into a toll gate, instead of an entrance to an exclusive club where the bouncer turns away anyone who isn't one of the cool kids.

Comparing Amia to other places is nice however it doesn't mean we have to take the same approach. I am curious why some who left for pastures new wish for Amia to become like other servers when they can (and have been happily playing) those other servers and if they can't play there, why is that, what stops them?

For me, other servers have other issues, I have friends here, I couldn't get any friends to join me on C&D, I am banned on Arelith though that did not stop me from using a VPN to play there again, and I made it pretty successful on there again in a short time, winning PVP's daily and having settlement leaders eating out of my hand. I quit playing on there when my friends there quit again though. Mostly I just want to see Amia be successful again and have lots of players like it did when I first joined. We've lost quite a few pillars of this community, some for good reason, but then they were never really replaced and it has been sad to see the server stagnate and decline further. I don't even care anything about requesting any half-dragons or vampires or anything crazy like that for myself, I will probably just continue playing elves and only sometimes requesting +5 weapons, for me this is about giving new and returning players an incentive to log in and be active again.

[Elorathall]

These kind of threads pop up regularly - yearly? - seeking to identify the something that should change to attract more players/rekindle activity. And inevitably, someone brings up a particular feature, policy, or content (the request system, the pvp rules, favoritism,... ) which prompts the entire discussion to go off on a tangent rather than digging deeper. And with the root cause of the problem left unidentified (or perhaps purposefully obscured), the problem remains.

Let's be clear. There is no single feature, policy, or person that is solely responsible for the current state of the server, though some of these certainly influence the state of things more than others. Amia is a community of people whose assumptions/beliefs shape their decisions/actions, which shape the server. And I believe misalignment on those beliefs of what Amia is and should be is the root cause of Amia's problems.

[Opustus]

...
No good comes of putting staff on a pedestal like that, Opustus. They are not billionaires among peasants.

Sorry, I was a bit unclear with my intention. Think of it like this:

Proposition 1: DCs are almost always less valuable than real money, unless there's some billionaire playing who has no DCs and he reaaaaally wants them. DCs are almost always more valuable than gravel, unless there's someone who reaaaally likes gravel or just doesn't find DCs useful in the least.

Proposition 2: Katy has 1000 DCs but never spends it on anything. Walter has 1000 DCs and spends it often. Ben has 10 DCs and really wants to spends it often but can't. Alice has 10 DCs and never spends it on anything.

Preposition 3: For Katy and Alice, being rich in DCs doesn't make them happy. For them, personally, DCs are like gravel, because they would never buy anything with them anyhow. However, Katy and Alice both understand that there are others like Ben and Walter who do value DCs. For Walter and Ben, being rich in DCs makes them happy, because it gets them cool things that they both want, and Walter can get a lot more of those cool things. To each, DCs are valuable in different degrees, and there are Mikes and Lucies and Andrews and Sallies who have different amounts of DCs and assign different values to DCs based on their personal needs and wants, but everyone is at least theoretically capable of sympathising with one another and trying to get along.

Preposition 4: In the DC economy, Walter is better off than Ben. If Ben feels that Walter's DCs are gained by dishonest means, it might create distrust between them. Katy and Alice can have this same gulf as a matter of principle, although they aren't personally affected. Walter is in a position where he gets to do stuff that Ben doesn't by which Walter earns more DCs than Ben, and it's possible that Ben feels resentment over this.

Preposition 5: It's wrong to say that DCs don't matter or aren't valuable, even if they aren't valuable just to you, and it pays off to sympathise with other people's positions and feelings. Also, there are ways to ensure that Ben and Walter get along.

What I mean is that I'm probably like Katy with the 1000 DCs who doesn't really need them and who also probably has an easier time than others getting DCs, and I say stuff like "DCs are worthless" often, which is insensitive towards people who want them but don't have them. Also, my other point was that we aren't technically volunteers but workers on a DC wage (however shite a wage that is), which to me personally is the same as being a volunteer because I do not value DCs for my personal use, but other people might find my earnings valuable.

[Opustus]

These kind of threads pop up regularly - yearly? - seeking to identify the something that should change to attract more players/rekindle activity. And inevitably, someone brings up a particular feature, policy, or content (the request system, the pvp rules, favoritism,... ) which prompts the entire discussion to go off on a tangent rather than digging deeper. And with the root cause of the problem left unidentified (or perhaps purposefully obscured), the problem remains.

Let's be clear. There is no single feature, policy, or person that is solely responsible for the current state of the server, though some of these certainly influence the state of things more than others. Amia is a community of people whose assumptions/beliefs shape their decisions/actions, which shape the server. And I believe misalignment on those beliefs of what Amia is and should be is the root cause of Amia's problems.

Could you explain what you think that these misaligned beliefs are? How should they be better aligned? What can we as a community do towards that end?

[Dovesong]

This is literally why I asked individuals to reach out so we can talk privately. I am disinterested in any kind of "status quo", for good or for bad.

I am *solely* interested in gathering information as to what SPECIFICALLY causes people to leave, and how THOSE PEOPLE think things could be made better.
I went through my past to show that I am not one who anyone would consider to be a "DM Favorite" - if anything, I'm the black sheep, and I'm okay with that. We need, on the Team, a variety of viewpoints and perceptions if we want to better things, imo.

So reach out. You have literally nothing to lose, but hopefully plenty to gain. You, of most people here, Elorathall, know me. We've been friends for the better part of ten years now. I am not here to hurt anyone. I truly want to find a path forward.

[Budly]

Please, do not do the reward system. Arelith can feel like a MMORPG at times because of it. I do not think rolling is a good thing. It encourages characters to "die". I do not go by the same name there as here. But do not adopt the reward system. Applications to me is much better system than having to "grind" characters that you toss in a meat grinder to become mince meat and possibly become a "reward" or absolutely NOTHING.

[The Gentleman]

Asking the Developer team, what is amia.

[Raua]

Insomnia struck, and I guess I can't let things be without saying my piece. I guess that's one of my bad traits.
Hi, I'm Olive, Long time On-again, off-again Former Administrative Developer/Brief DM of eight years now, and probably not-so-popular person.

Anyways. I want to preface this post with a disclaimer that I'm going to be expressing my personal opinions, i.e. things that are not necessarily objectively true or false, just a [potentially flawed] perspective. If I'm off base, I'm off base, but I do have a perspective. Hopefully a helpful one. And I also feel like I would be remiss if I didn't at least state that I at no point intend to hurt, belittle, or make anyone feel bad about themselves.

Boring stuff out of the way, here I go~ As Dovesong said; something needs to change. Obviously these are only my opinions, but here's my peanut gallery opinion on a couple of things that might help.

One problem I ran into when I briefly poked my head into the server after my latest hiatus is that I quickly felt like there was little to do or get involved in, barring mostly social RP. Which, again, is probably not true, but that was my early impression. Now, don't get it twisted, I am confident there was a lot of meaningful RP going on, possibly major plotlines I was too shy to get too close to, but when I say "Of substance," I mean, "In the way of plots potentially affecting the world, environment, or things with tangible consequences." Now, I can accept some responsibility for not trying incredibly hard to get invested, as I have my reasons for being hesitant about becoming too attached to the server again. Now, this is something that happens from time to time, there's a lull between major plotlines, and various goings on that require an intimate/contemporary involvement to get the most out of. And that's perfectly fine. And I'm not gonna say this is a failing on anyone's part.

Potential Remedy: I Guess the most pertinent solution to this, in my eyes, is have more long-standing plots. I know they're difficult to run. Hell. My anxiety issues prevented me from being more active with plots as a DM, I get it. What may help is if DMs tackled "Major" plots in teams of 2-3, or more, depending on the plot. It's always good to have another person on your side when you're running something. This will require some group documentation and coordination, but I'm confident it can easily be done.

Here's a quick-list of Pros and Cons of this suggestion:
Pros:
-Less pressure placed on each DM involved.
-More people Players can reach out to with questions or interactions regarding specific plots.
-Potential for multiple timezones of access, if DMs are in different places of the world
-Working in teams helps people keep eachother accountable. Kinda like group-projects in high school. Except fun!

Cons:
-Will require adjustment of how DMs structure their notes/work with each other, which will take time, but is doable!
-Everyone needs to get along! Trust issues abound. This was a big issue during my tenure, though I don't know if that is still the case.
-Massive amounts of communication and Documentation needs to be clearly kept within these Large-plot DM groups. This is always difficult, but a necessary evil

I hope this quick, but probably not exhaustive, list helps show that this is a possible change that can be accomplished with some adjustments.

======================================================================================================================================

Another thing that I was sad to see was that many places went left unused/barely used, or untouched by players and DMs. Cordor still being in ruins after several years being the most prominent that comes to mind. Of the DM members I was talking to about this a few months back, one said [roughly] "I can't get players involved here, I try, but no one seems interested!" And to that, all I can think is; "Why wait for players to get involved? If you want to run something, you should! People will come if they see things happening, probably!" But maybe Amia is too big now. So many settlements with upwards of 100+ "Positions" available in each of them. That's immense. Even when Amia had 30+ players on line at the time of EE, there weren't enough people for settlements or niches. What can we do about this? My unpopular take, is to consider potentially culling some underused areas. If there's less place to spread out, people are more likely to run into eachother and have interactions, RP, conflicts, etc. Is this a great solution? Probably not.

Another solution to this is, leave the areas alone, but focus attention on finding niches within the server's most populated Cities. Elorathall has pointed out the "NPC Hive-mind" Problem that seems to plague the server's more popular settlements. Ultimately, this is a problem of missed/wasted opportunity. Cordor seemingly became a kingdom overnight and Not-a-one citizen seemed opposed, despite Cordor historically being very against the idea of having a monarchy? There was a massive trial in Kohligen in which a prominent noble challenged the ruler-to-be's credibility. And there was no divisiveness in the citizenry over this? These are, in my opinion, missed opportunities for conflict, sub-factions, and fringe groups to form.

Here's some suggestions/Possibilities;
-In the wake of the trial, a fringe group of Greengarden loyalists rise up and evict the silver dragons from their lands, out of loyalty for their ousted duke. And thus, a bid for control over Greengardens begin. Who will be victorious? Those who believe the Queen is just and true, or those who believe she is a Usurper, unfit to rule them? What could the outcome be? A quashed rebellion, leaving the Greengardens resentful of the queen, and now a rife breeding ground for the unsavory. A place where a secret Anti-crown society meets and plots their next move? They are right next-door to Pirates and smugglers, that could be interesting!

-Southport, enjoying it's relatively uneventful, save for explosive sewers, period; Makes great progress in its reconstruction efforts, long since the great Horde war of 1388. New Canals, streets, homes, and shops have been built and rebuilt. In order to protect its newfound prosperity, Officials elect to re-establish the Guards of old, employing adventurers and war vets alike to keep their city safe, though a coloful number of factions may or may not have taken root in the city's narrow, winding streets.

==========================================================================================================

Ultimately, I think the server would benefit from the DM team deciding on a "Future" for Amia. Maybe take some time to sit down and really define the purpose, theme, general appeal of each of the major settlements. What appeals to them? What are they for? Who would be interested/what concepts might work here? How might they be changed going forward to better attract attention. Conflict isn't a bad thing, in my opinion. In fact, it's damn near necessary! Old rivalries of Tarkuul Vs Kohligen, Vs Wiltun was fun. People had to pick sides and live with the consequences of that choice. What might help is, if there were things to be conflicted over. Say, there's a valuable resource that only is plentiful enough for one settlement, but three have need of it?--A race to gather it ensues that could potentially cause intrigue may ensue! Or, perhaps a threat faces One settlement, that stopping, would adversely affect another. Maybe raiders are going after Southport, and if they are blockated, they'll go after Kohligen instead. Who is better equiped to handle this problem? Who should have to deal with it? Bad example, but something to that effect.

=====================================================================================================================

Anyways. I'm rambling and sleepy, and I probably have more thoughts. I may be off base, and maybe I'm not, You guys decide. I just felt like I had to at least state some of my feelings, or it would eat at me. And I really do hope this can be helpful.

If anyone on the team wants to reach out on Discord and chat with me privately more about my thoughts here, or why I stepped away in the first place, I'm happy to chat!

[T0mc4t89]

I myself am completely against the culling and removing of areas. I think it is great that there are areas to explore and see on the server, as we are playing in a fantasy world after all. I don't think we should see areas as a burden, but more like opportunities for further plots and events DMs and players can organise as well as world lore development. If we want to concentrate players to specific areas just so they meet, then that can be done naturally by simply holding events in those areas. Also logistics matter, which is why the Wave and Serpent is always a go to place when there are no events going. I don't think players NOT meeting with each other is an issue on the server, we just need to find reasons why players would go to specific areas to interact. Culling of areas just to get players to interact sounds very heavy handed and forced, and would also make the server less rich in my opinion especially if I want to feel like I am playing an explorable world. I think it is cool to visit areas which might not be very popular, as you might find things which not many players or characters know about.

We don't need to have every settlement to be filled by player leaders either, they can be controlled by DMs whenever they are needed to make a response or influence the server somehow. We should see the player led settlements project more like an optional feature for players instead of a requirement to be able to even have settlements on the server! And which is just removing some strain from the team especially for the more popular settlements. There can even be small plots by DMs/players in less popular settlements which gives more ideas and opportunities due to different regions, cultures and standard of living. Instead of just having Evil Town, Neutral Town and Good Town on the server.

I think documentation of different areas and npcs should just be increased and improved, so DMs will know how to help players if they want to do stuff in a less popular area. And older players who know those areas can and should help with that! Players should also be patient with DMs whenever doing stuff in less popular areas as there might not be much documentation of them (yet).

A good way would be to have some overarching plot of the server which affects different areas, like Raua mentioned! I remember Forrstakkr having a supporter of the Amnish mage authorities who were causing all sorts of trouble back on Amia (back then when the server was still pre-EE), which this figure then caused issues to the people. My character and others then had to solve this matter. I think it was very cool and showed how other areas can be used/influenced to show they are part of the larger events of the world! Such branching plots don't even have to be as massive as the "main plot" either.

[Jes]

(All the things.)

Just wanted to say that this is a wonderful post. Thank you for this. It echoes some of my own sentiments, especially regarding a server story/larger plots. I know they're hard and can be convoluted and hard to follow up on, but co-DM'ing helps mitigate some of that drastically. It truly does. Get a DM partner and go for it!

I'm working on one with Legion right now myself. Only real downside immediately noticeable is the planning stage takes a while. xD

[Dovesong]

Okay all!

My deepest apologies - RL took over and I was very, very much not in a good place for a LONG time.

That has (thankfully!) resolved, and my desire to keep improving things for all of us is right back where it was, so I'll be taking some time to go over this and develop a comprehensive way to display things so we can move forward.

Thank you to everyone who's borne with me through all this!

[Dovesong]

OKAY!

So I've had time to recoup IRL, and I'm going to lock this for right now. The subject IS NOT CLOSED. This thread simply is while I create a post that addresses the valuable feedback I've received.

From there, it's my hope that we can actually move forward, and come up with solutions together. Some of the problems, realistically, I can't fix. But some, we might be able to work on!

Stay tuned!