Peerage Class

[IKoI]

Had some questions about the Vassel. Can you choose race, craft their outfits, pick different style weapon, use craftable shields, and how sturdy are the in an actual battle? How are they when buffed up by Mages? Can you add VFX affects, an Ioun stone? Wings? And is their BAB better than Rouge?

[ninjamonkey2000]

Can you choose the race? Yes
Can you craft their armor? You can't give them custom armor but you can change what the armor they wear looks like
Pick a different weapon? No, it's always longsword
Use craftable shields? You can't give them custom shields but you can change what the shield looks like
How sturdy are they? Pretty sturdy, I took them to Frost Giants though and he did fine
How are they fully buffed by a Mage? Probably way better than how I had him as my Archer with limited buffs (potions and scrolls)
Can you add VFX? No
BaB better than Rogue? I dunno, odd question to ask. It depends, but with full persuade their Base Attack is 24

Hope this helps!

[IKoI]

Thanks. I should have asked is Rogue lvl BAB better than a Peerage lvl taken. What about helm and cloak, they get those as well? Oh, and can you pick which head option you desire for the Vassel?

[charles1810]

For the first part that be debatable n very build related.

Peerage you should take 5 levels of while rogue you can dip 2 levels in for major pay off. Peerage does not have umd or tumble or Evasion. So... depends.

Don't believe you can pick the head.
Don't think it has a cloak or helm, would have to check someone likely will answer this better than me.

[Lord-Jyssev]

You can now get the Peerage feat on the test server, so give it a try! I've only messed around with it briefly but it seemed strong enough to get the job done in more general PvE. IIRC they're helmeted, so no heads.

[Freaxxshow]

It doesn't save any of the changes to armor so... Yeah... That needs working on.

On Peggy it's an alright summon, better than the weaker EMD options, but not insanely strong either.

[IKoI]

Thank you all for the knowledge!

[Freaxxshow]

I can give you a screenshot of it's stats once I'm back home.

[IKoI]

All good, I checked it out on the Test server.

[IKoI]

Can u make the Vassal talk like a Bottled companion?

[Mahtan]

You can not yet.

[IKoI]

Can Milly wear her Bottled Companion NPC Heavy armor suit, and the Vassal will copy it? Or will it defaut to Near nude chest?

[Opustus]

Yup, they copy the outfit, no matter the base armour. You just have to re-do that on resummoning the Vassal, a bit of a hassle but fortunately it sticks around unless, gods forbid, the silly thing should die.

[IKoI]

You can not yet.

So, does this mean that it's on the Docket for a future upgrade? If so, what else may we be able to expect?

[Frozen-ass]

its more a "yeah we like to see that" but there is a extremly low urgency for that part, if at all. so no promises.

we are more looking into overhauling the class for public usage

[IKoI]

I figured it would be low on the totem pole, just nice to hear it's on the wish list and a possibility in the future.

[Freaxxshow]

its more a "yeah we like to see that" but there is a extremly low urgency for that part, if at all. so no promises.

we are more looking into overhauling the class for public usage

Why not just take the Token requirement off? It's not that hard to explain having a bodyguard or a buddy along.

Also, when overhauling, maybe could figure out a way the armor changed stick, casters are kinda shit out of luck with that ATM

[Opustus]

We've discussed this and it's still undecided, though I sense an agreement to opening it. The current version of Peerage is abusable as hell on low levels, so there seems to be an agreement that there should be a better level progression for the Vassal, which isn't a big undertaking but the Devs are busy with other priorities. There are other minor bugs that need looking at, like the halfling version of the Vassal having feats for longsword while wielding a shortsword. And yep, agree that we should think of a better implementation for the appearance, but I guess we just didn't know of a better method so ideas are welcome!

[Karrados]

Couldn't you just lock it behind the Epic character feat? That way you wouldn't have to touch the summon and the Class could only be taken at +20 at which point it would no longer be abuseable.

[Opustus]

That's a good point! I will bring it up. I think someone at one point suggested that Epic Reputation would be a prereq, which is a silly feat that does absolutely nothing but I guess the name matches the class in spirit? I think the epic character requirement would be a better solution.

I think that really we should ask ourselves if we want Peerage to be epic only or not and for what reasons. I don't think that to "get it live sooner" is a good enough reason in itself. So why should Peerage be an epic class? (I honestly don't have an idea myself why it should or shouldn't be.)

[Maverick00053]

I think the better solution is we just make a proper spread of summons for lower levels. It is a lot more work but long term it is a healthier fix.

[IKoI]

Couldn't you just lock it behind the Epic character feat? That way you wouldn't have to touch the summon and the Class could only be taken at +20 at which point it would no longer be abuseable.

Making any Prestige Class only accessible after LvL 20 IMO is a bad idea. Where would you draw the line?

[Jes]

Making it require Epic Reputation instead of DM approval could be interesting. Maybe we can give that feat a little extra so it's not so bleh, too. Though it does synergize with Peerage with that +4 Bluff.

[Karrados]

Couldn't you just lock it behind the Epic character feat? That way you wouldn't have to touch the summon and the Class could only be taken at +20 at which point it would no longer be abuseable.

Making any Prestige Class only accessible after LvL 20 IMO is a bad idea. Where would you draw the line?

I'd argue that it would not be the first class to be after 20 (See Monk Advanced class and the Bloodsworn thing) and it would make sense that you wouldn't get a follower until you at least built up somewhat of a reputation with your deeds.

[Elorathall]

I like making Epic Reputation a requirement as it's a effectively placeholder feat right now, and would reflect the PC making a considerable investment in learning how to lead - which lies in the spirit of the feat. Plus, the relatively high cost (taking up a precious epic feat) can offset any balance issues of the vassal - sure it can be powerful, but it's also a serious investment en par with an Epic Spell. Plus, as I recall, it costs gold to summon every time?

As a side suggestion, would it be a good idea to rename the class and the minion? If it's opened up to a greater number of PC's (and a broader interpretation) then perhaps going for a more generic term would avoid confusion. Something like Officer, Leader, Chief, ... and the minion as Hireling or so.

[Maverick00053]

I like making Epic Reputation a requirement as it's a effectively placeholder feat right now, and would reflect the PC making a considerable investment in learning how to lead - which lies in the spirit of the feat. Plus, the relatively high cost (taking up a precious epic feat) can offset any balance issues of the vassal - sure it can be powerful, but it's also a serious investment en par with an Epic Spell. Plus, as I recall, it costs gold to summon every time?

As a side suggestion, would it be a good idea to rename the class and the minion? If it's opened up to a greater number of PC's (and a broader interpretation) then perhaps going for a more generic term would avoid confusion. Something like Officer, Leader, Chief, ... and the minion as Hireling or so.

Peerage is a broad general term for any rank, leadership, or role in any organization etc.

[GreatPigeon]

That's a good point! I will bring it up. I think someone at one point suggested that Epic Reputation would be a prereq, which is a silly feat that does absolutely nothing but I guess the name matches the class in spirit? I think the epic character requirement would be a better solution.

I think that really we should ask ourselves if we want Peerage to be epic only or not and for what reasons. I don't think that to "get it live sooner" is a good enough reason in itself. So why should Peerage be an epic class? (I honestly don't have an idea myself why it should or shouldn't be.)

This was me before it was released even. And constantly since it’s been a thing. As well as suggesting the name was still dreadful and there should be 0 request needed and that the minion dude was overturned. And making it require persuade to be better.

[GreatPigeon]

Making it require Epic Reputation instead of DM approval could be interesting. Maybe we can give that feat a little extra so it's not so bleh, too. Though it does synergize with Peerage with that +4 Bluff.

Don’t the peerage requires use base persuade? I specifically warned against people stacking persuade on items then summoning and taking those items off. Because I doubted anyone was building a pulse/ constant check for perform.

[Opustus]

You get the bonuses for Vassal from Persuade rank, yus.

For me having a feat or skill tax without any mechanical usefulness always starts this inner dialogue:
"Wowee, Peerage is sure a cool class. I can play a noble and have my own vassal, how cool is that?"
"For that we require you to punch yourself in the ballsack."
"Why do you *want* me to punch myself in the ballsack? That hurts!"
"We don't *want* to, but we *need* you to."
"But why? What's the need?"
"Well, it's an epic feat tax. Your class is very powerful. So one punch in the ballsack must be paid to balance the cosmic scales."
"But aren't those other classes powerful too? Why don't they require a punch in the ballsack?"
"Oh, you raise a good point. We *should* make everyone punch themselves in the ballsack."
"Oh dear god no pleaaaaaseee nooooooooooooo!!!!"

And then I wake up drenched in sweat.

More to the point, Epic Reputation is just a feat that says "Your character has an epic reputation, brah!" That's totes RP, right? If it actually did something useful and if we *wanted for good reasons* to restrict Peerage to epic, then I would not mind. But just saying "It's a feat tax cos it's powerful and it says epic reputation so it fits!" is like super duper meh for me.

And I do agree that Peerage reminds me of some British high-class hobnobbery and that vassal is a weirdly specific historical feudal term. Mav has told that in the English vernacular it exists as a more catch-all term, but the dictionary definitions don't support this, but as a non-native I miss many nuances. EDIT: images of dictionary definitions:

[GreatPigeon]

Peerage is a broad general term for any rank, leadership, or role in any organization etc.

I don’t believe this is true. I’ve lived all over the world. I’ve spoken English my entire life. I’ve only heard it used in British royalty and House of Lords.

Please show me where it’s not. I have thought about military l, social club, non profits. It’s a terrible name. It exists as “not Lordship” as lordship was your initial stab and it was fucking awful. Peerage still summons up the idea of nobility by its name. It’s hopefully not going to be a noble only thing.

Change it.

[walnutboy]

As a brit I have to say, when the term peerage is used its normally followed by something related to the House of Lords or an article relating to hereditary titles. Certainly doesn't give the catch all title when set against modern society and current affairs. But Amia isn't set against such a backdrop and I can certainly see the intent with the word and class summing up one of either importance or social standing while not necessarily being nobility... however a peer is 'one that is of equal standing with another' rather than being better. To such an end paragon likely fits better, 'a person or thing regarded as a perfect example of a particular quality.'

[Elorathall]

((... Opustus' ball-punching sex dream ...))

And then I wake up drenched in sweat.

The requirement isn't (shouldn't be) about punishing people. It's about decisions, costs, and consequences - what lies at the very heart of any RP game. Everything should have advantages and disadvantages. You can have a minion, but now you can't have that extra epic spell. It's a trade-off to make.

In my view, being able to employ NPC minions is a very serious advantage. Not just in combat, but outside as well, as I can send my (powerful) agent on missions my PC is not well-suited too, or would be wasted on. And unlike Epic Spell minions like dragons and whatnot, my agent can blend into the general population.

[Opustus]

((... Opustus' ball-punching sex dream ...))

And then I wake up drenched in sweat.

The requirement isn't (shouldn't be) about punishing people. It's about decisions, costs, and consequences - what lies at the very heart of any RP game. Everything should have advantages and disadvantages. You can have a minion, but now you can't have that extra epic spell. It's a trade-off to make.

In my view, being able to employ NPC minions is a very serious advantage. Not just in combat, but outside as well, as I can send my (powerful) agent on missions my PC is not well-suited too, or would be wasted on. And unlike Epic Spell minions like dragons and whatnot, my agent can blend into the general population.

Then for god's sake pick any other epic feat that does something. If epic reputation did something, like improved the summon like epic fiendish servant or shadowlord, I might understand it. And still it should be a question of "Do we want to make it an epic or a pre-epic class? Why? Why not?" We shouldn't make it an epic feat requirement just because it's an easy fix and caters to players sooner. As far as common sense goes, I can see any low-level character being in a position of importance and having a tiny wee vassal underfoot.

[walnutboy]

Importance shouldn't be tied to level, kind of agree with that and have ran a char in the past who never got higher than 4 because I didn't like leveling them... but it didn't hinder my rp that much.

[GreatPigeon]

((... Opustus' ball-punching sex dream ...))

And then I wake up drenched in sweat.

The requirement isn't (shouldn't be) about punishing people. It's about decisions, costs, and consequences - what lies at the very heart of any RP game. Everything should have advantages and disadvantages. You can have a minion, but now you can't have that extra epic spell. It's a trade-off to make.

In my view, being able to employ NPC minions is a very serious advantage. Not just in combat, but outside as well, as I can send my (powerful) agent on missions my PC is not well-suited too, or would be wasted on. And unlike Epic Spell minions like dragons and whatnot, my agent can blend into the general population.

Then for god's sake pick any other epic feat that does something. If epic reputation did something, like improved the summon like epic fiendish servant or shadowlord, I might understand it. And still it should be a question of "Do we want to make it an epic or a pre-epic class? Why? Why not?" We shouldn't make it an epic feat requirement just because it's an easy fix and caters to players sooner. As far as common sense goes, I can see any low-level character being in a position of importance and having a tiny wee vassal underfoot.

Agreed. These questions are the type of QC to make sure the class does what it was intended. What’s it’s intended to do? Idk those questions weren’t answered in dev cycle. Pretty damn sure.

[GreatPigeon]

((... Opustus' ball-punching sex dream ...))

And then I wake up drenched in sweat.

The requirement isn't (shouldn't be) about punishing people. It's about decisions, costs, and consequences - what lies at the very heart of any RP game. Everything should have advantages and disadvantages. You can have a minion, but now you can't have that extra epic spell. It's a trade-off to make.

In my view, being able to employ NPC minions is a very serious advantage. Not just in combat, but outside as well, as I can send my (powerful) agent on missions my PC is not well-suited too, or would be wasted on. And unlike Epic Spell minions like dragons and whatnot, my agent can blend into the general population.

Then for god's sake pick any other epic feat that does something. If epic reputation did something, like improved the summon like epic fiendish servant or shadowlord, I might understand it. And still it should be a question of "Do we want to make it an epic or a pre-epic class? Why? Why not?" We shouldn't make it an epic feat requirement just because it's an easy fix and caters to players sooner. As far as common sense goes, I can see any low-level character being in a position of importance and having a tiny wee vassal underfoot.

Can’t bottled suffice for that?

[IKoI]

You get the bonuses for Vassal from Persuade rank, yus.

For me having a feat or skill tax without any mechanical usefulness always starts this inner dialogue:
"Wowee, Peerage is sure a cool class. I can play a noble and have my own vassal, how cool is that?"
"For that we require you to punch yourself in the ballsack."
"Why do you *want* me to punch myself in the ballsack? That hurts!"
"We don't *want* to, but we *need* you to."
"But why? What's the need?"
"Well, it's an epic feat tax. Your class is very powerful. So one punch in the ballsack must be paid to balance the cosmic scales."
"But aren't those other classes powerful too? Why don't they require a punch in the ballsack?"
"Oh, you raise a good point. We *should* make everyone punch themselves in the ballsack."
"Oh dear god no pleaaaaaseee nooooooooooooo!!!!"

And then I wake up drenched in sweat.

LMFAO!!! Oh, the Ballsack punch of pain is REAL! I ended up nerfing the shit out of Milly. She can't even defeat Ghost Pirate Captain anymore.

[IKoI]

Okay, so ran GPC again, this time with the Vassal. Was able to defeat him in a 15-minute match. Vassal softened him up some, but ultimately died quickly. Had to use a haste Pot and Divine Book to finish him off. But still digging the class so far.

[Jes]

Making it require Epic Reputation instead of DM approval could be interesting. Maybe we can give that feat a little extra so it's not so bleh, too. Though it does synergize with Peerage with that +4 Bluff.

Don’t the peerage requires use base persuade? I specifically warned against people stacking persuade on items then summoning and taking those items off. Because I doubted anyone was building a pulse/ constant check for perform.

It synergizes in that people are going to be taking Persuade anyway. Not like super efficiently, but meaning people will have it and also get a small bonus.

But I agree with Opustus, too, that we can only use that feat as a prereq if we add more to it than just RP flair. Hence my saying we should make it less bleh. xD Epic Reputation fits the theme of the class, but that feat needs more in order for it be a worthy epic prereq.

[Elorathall]

Okay, I get that. Epic Reputation isn't too useful in itself, and making it 'only' a requirement for a PRC won't solve that. It's a whole other discussion but I wonder if E.R. couldn't be an enhancer - something that makes other things better.

[IKoI]

Wait, I thought persuade cap was at 30. Wearing persuade gear helps the Vassal?

[Opustus]

Last I checked it benefited only from base rank.

[GreatPigeon]

Okay, I get that. Epic Reputation isn't too useful in itself, and making it 'only' a requirement for a PRC won't solve that. It's a whole other discussion but I wonder if E.R. couldn't be an enhancer - something that makes other things better.

Epic shadelord, epic summon spell, epic fiend all only do 1 thing.

Make the peerage summon shit but that feat trigger it’s “epic version”.

That feat is epic only so now the scariest version you don’t balance pre epic around.
Every one else requires feats for epic summons - why not then. Except BBOD of course.

You can use the lycan base stats as that’s apparently geared for a X many levels before upgrading as your summon homie base and work off of that for the pre epic levels. If you do this persuade should only be a pre req but not required for the summon upgrade.

[Jes]

That's a snazzy idea, Pidge.

[charles1810]

That's a snazzy idea, Pidge.

Would easily make it balanced. But than class itself need a tad of love I think even if just flare for not just only thing it does is summon.

[Tempurian]

Make it a base class, BAB +1 would open variety of options to go to from that class.