Form Feedback - Discussion

For all general, Amia-related discussions.
Jes
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Form Feedback - Discussion

Post by Jes »

Feedback Discussion


I've had many people ask about this, so we will be posting form feedback that we get from our Feedback Form so that players may discuss the points created by players who submitted feedback. Perhaps we can look to each other for ways to improve on points raised or address them as a community. No names will be attached to the public entries, even if you put your name into the feedback form.

Our feedback form uses Google Forms and does not require logging into Google. Emails are not recorded. This is fully anonymous unless you put your name in the form yourself (but whatever name you put in there will not be included here in Discussion).

Please keep the discussion civil. Some of the feedback may have strong wording, but I encourage everyone to keep it polite but honest.

Feedback we received prior to today will not be included, since those players were not aware that they would be made public. Players who want to have their previous feedback included for discussion can just re-submit or let me know privately, if you included your name and I can find it easily.

If you do submit feedback but don't want your feedback to be discussed, just let us know in your feedback response and we won't post it in this thread.


Click here to submit feedback!


----------------------------


Feedback Entries



Received 24 June, 2022:
Amia is dismal. There's nothing to do and the DMs are difficult to talk to because they get defensive or mean when you try to say anything. They don't run the settlements anymore (except Winya, I guess) and the setting as a whole is completely dead. I'm amazed anyone plays here. If you want people to enjoy Amia and quit with the drama and toxicity you are known for, you need to actually care about telling a story. Stop making players jump through a million hoops to get anything done - since anything they gain can go away after a little bit of inactivity, but DMs can keep everything the way they want when they're inactive. It's so heavily skewed in DMs' favor that it's ridiculous. There's a reason Amia has a reputation. It's just not fun and the DMs would rather police everything than actually facilitate player efforts. Try harder or step down and let people who actually want to weave a story onto your close-knit team that smells of nepotism.


Received 24 June, 2022:
You need more design work on areas and there's lots of bugs to fix. The world has a lot of potential, but there isn't enough things to do. Many things seem to be half-finished. Jobs system is okay but so limited. Can't do anything but sell a lot of items for not very much gold. Expand on the jobs and things to make. Amia is to easy, leveling is quick and once you have everything you need for your toon you have nothing else to do but sit around and wait for events. What reason is tehre to care for the cities? What is Amia about? Is there a story that I'm missing? When you come from a place like Ravenloft that has a theme and story Amia seems like it's just there. I dont mean I want Amia to be dark like Ravenloft, but it should have a story?


Received 24 June, 2022:
I'm honestly just tired of standing around in the starting area and taking part in social RP at this point, but whenever I log in that seems to be the only course of action I can take beyond going through the same high level dungeons for epic loot i'll probably never get to sell or make use of with how low our population is right now. There's also very little DM events happening anymore beyond settlement and group based events that's internal rather than reaching for a wider audience. It's why I think that even though everyone has said they're fatigued from the previous long-winded plots, maybe Amia needs a new "arc" or "chapter" as they did give everyone a reason to get involved with the world and see what was going on and what impact their characters could have.


Received 24 June, 2022:
I think one of the bigger problems that Amia is facing would be Nepotism as one of the earlier Feedback have stated.

That along with the lack of things to do aside from Boss Hunting and the Job System.

1. Boss Hunting and Endgame

There is only so much Boss hunting that you can do before you say: Why am I doing this? What is the purpose? Once I equip my Character there is nothing left for me to do but to sit down and wait for any Event to pop up.

One way to change it would be to decrease the loot chance but that would merely address the grinding loop without taking care of the actual problem: Events that are the sole form of Late Game entertainment.


2. The Job System

While initially a nice Idea it was quite clear that this was not a finished System once it was released. We went from being hard locked to Professions and being terrible at those that we didn't pick to being Great at our chosen Professions and somewhat decent at those that we didn't pick.

That was mostly a design choice due to the lack of a player base and Characters that may or may not have those Professions. The problem with that is that some Professions were shafted hard by opening up their expertise while at the same time Scholar and Merchant along with Farmer still are allowed to keep their exclusive perks.

The whole Hunter rework ended up being a huge boon to both Architects and Tailors but barely gave something to Hunter which is a very questionable design choice in the grand scheme of things. Yes I am aware that they can do the activity more often and for free but that is a very, very small victory all things considered.

I cannot say this for sure but I am willing to bet that the Hunters of old times were more than capable of making Tents and Trophies if the situation called for it.

My suggestion would be to go through with it entirely for all Professions if you are going to do it with one of them: Make every character capable of storing 3-5 resources as they are not trained in the art and allow them to dig for Relics and plant their own Crops with a reduced chance.

I know that there are plans to give Merchants craftable boxes but that doesn't mean that people shouldn't have a few Baseline slots. Perhaps not 3-5 but 1 or 2 just to have a very, very basic storage with more being purchased by the Merchant PC.

Also throw in some Tents and Trophies for the Hunter to make.


3. The DMs

I hate saying this as they are all volunteers but it may be for the best to finally be tough on them and ask them to perform their duties or to just drop them. Many of them seem to be doing the bare minimum yet they still keep the Tags. The only real thing that is happening these days is the Djinn which should be automated at this point and not count as an event because it's just buying things and Winya.

Volunteers or not: If you are going to sign up for something then you should be willing to do the part that comes with the Tags, if you are unwilling to do so due to work, stress or whatever else then it would be for the best to put down that position and carefully think about applying again if you know that you won't be able to provide a bare minimum.

It feels like some of them are still on the Team because they have always been there which is where the Nepotism comes in. It should not matter if they have been around for long or if they are your friends: Their lack of activity is HURTING the Server and it won't get better if you keep the appearances up of having many DMs yet nothing ever happens.

At the same time it feels like anytime there is a new DM they get flooded by requests for personal stories along with many other things and they end up being burnt out after a short period as they have to carry the entire burden by them self which can only be fixed if there is an entire Team working together which I just don't see on Amia.

I apologise for the long rant but I love Amia but many of those choices are making it difficult for me to stay with it.


Received June 25, 2022:
The request system can allow for a lot of amazing things, but I do feel the criteria for requests could be made more objective, and less subjective, so that there is less room for people to perceive bias in what is allowed and what isn't. Everyone should be following the same requirements. I don't think flying should be a controversial thing that you completely ruin people's experience over, another popular server which I won't name for Amia's sake lets level 1 players purchase bottles of flying and that server is still IRREFUTABLY much more mundane and less epic than Amia. If people earn wings or a flying mount, just let them fly, ffs. +5 weapons also shouldn't be a controversial thing, when most people can run beastmen 4-6 times and purchase one from another player. It ends up just discriminating against some players in favor of others. Make things more equitable.

I understand the development side of things and how hard it is. Obviously you don't have enough people to work on fixing every area on the server. But I find it extremely odd we can spend time adding things like a Lycanthrope class or a Centaur race, which no one really was asking for, which we could already emulate without spending time changing the server mechanics, when we don't even have player housing, or more than one portal hub for players to use. I think it would be wise to start developing Amia as a sandbox for players to tell their own stories, rather than as a tabletop for the DM's to tell their own stories once a month.

I apologize if any of this sounds harsh, but it is coming from a place of love, I want to see Amia improve and be a worthy place to invest my RP in.


Received 25 June, 2022:
Communication. I know I personally ask a lot. I never expect everything. I do prefer knowing the why. That is my personality type. I also know it can be exhausting and draining being a member of staff. Tons of work, not enough people showing percolation (myself included) for a game you love. So communication what can be done, will be considered, and never will change is something I would love to see. For my communication type it will help out so I will spend time (hopefully) creating the sort of fun which is supported.


Received 26 June, 2022:
I think it would be nice to have player housing, something that has spawnable stuff (which is paid for through a menu in the place), a way to key, update locks (so scoundrels can/can't pick), and make keys for friends so they can use them. The housing could be dotted all over Amia. I would suggest the most populated areas be the last to be put in, because of land rush.

I think Amia does a lot of things right - classes, races, ability to influence the world.


Received 28 June, 2022:
Albacksen still being on the DM Team is really everything you need to know. The whole Nepotism thing people keep bringing up is unbelievably noticeable, I've personally profitted off of that as well, and as soon as that is gone for whatever reason, suddenly everything you've been doing dies and you can't do shit about it, because as a player - as long as you aren't on first name basis with a DM or two - you really don't have much power to do anything, even doing the most minor shit takes a Request which then takes weeks to get approved if at all. Factions are told to be active and work on their "mission statements" to get DM attention - But how the fuck do you keep people engaged when there is fuck all they can do?

And the DMs who really try are pretty much fucked, because they are stuck trying to juggle literally every single player to make them stay and have fun, while also trying to have fun themselves. I don't even know who Charles plays, I only ever see him doing DM stuff. The way Amia is put up is so ridiculously reliant on DMs, and that is the main problem imo. Sure you need a DM for cool big events, but theres gotta be some fucking way to let people on the Fly set something up. Let people run Events and control NPCs to some degree, for example. No point in policing the place if nobody even cares anymore.

All people do is sit in the stupid Guild and talk about nothing at all, sure you can hunt bosses but at this point I've killed so many bosses over the years that I really can't even fucking do it even if I'm watching a movie on the side.


Received 29 June, 2022
dm team often engages in favoritism and tends to sit around rping with each other only running events for themselves and friends and doing eachother's requests. seen dms on player all the time but never on dm running anything.

amia needs dms who will run things for everyone


Received 29 June, 2022
all you have to do is play through an amarice or charles plot and see that players don't mean anything to the server. post in the dm story thread so people can at least see shit is happening. the dev team is carrying this entire server on its back. most of the dms don't do anything of substance.
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Re: Form Feedback - Discussion

Post by Jes »

Received 29 June, 2022:
it is really stupid that Obsidian Isle was stuck in place for so long. People tried to get things to happen but it just seemed like nobody liked the playerbase there so we were just kept out of the way. Evil is pretty much dead on Amia. The team doesn't care and the team seems to be a major part of the toxicity on Amia, particularly Amarice. There were so many DMs who just didn't do anything that took so long to step down that it was clear the position is just there to make the DMs feel important. there are only two or three actually active dms, and charles plots just make me feel really stupid. what does hawkeye even do?? Make fun of players for playing the content? then shit got weird in the shrine and chased off really solid players, leaving only a bunch of super horny characters behind. it is, honestly, really a miracle that a staff member actually set the record straight but its too little too late.


Received 29 June, 2022:
only one dm (Legion) is actually doing anything. charels and Amarice do plots but their really not good plots. what the hell is going on with the staff? We can see what the devs are doing but i dont need to see any dm work to know that the devs are the only ones who care about this server.


Received 3 July, 2022:
Legion is the only dm doing anything? I'm confused as most of this so called 'feedback' is critising Amarice for dming the Djinn and Winya or Charles for doing plots (though seemingly not good ones)... perhaps I'm missing it or maybe they is just logging in and rping with herself on the dm client?

I personally don't see the issue with a dm running events for an active area or even being the sole contact for said area or group. At the end of the day I favor consistency in my npc interactions over 'wtf' moments when someone you spoke to a few weeks ago suddenly has no idea who your character is as well as a complete personally lobotomy!! Pretty sure such happened with Moonpier, npcs were introduced to the players only for them to go through 3 different dms... with the last playing one of the main npcs like a crazed witch everyone icly and oocly questioned if it was the same character! It was a hoot for about a minute oocly... but the result seemed to be everyone avoiding that dms events forever after, the area too.

It must be hard seeing things happen that are not involving your character or your group after they icly place themselves in a position which excludes them from a particular groups activities due to how they are so opposed. Tzi, really, your plot idea was to purchase elven slaves, hold them for three months then let them go? You do realise that a large bulk of the characters in game, npc or pc, would place your Tzi's head on a spike and watch it burn... right? I mean if Winya were not already looking at Tzi with suspicion they certainly would question his motives after such a thing! Perhaps there might have been some bias on the dms part in the way of not making your character unplayable and avoiding your moans that they let you do it after it likely would have gone sideways? Rp tends to spin on a dime and such at times is never more clear than in dm events... however I do agree that things which should play out a certain way largely aren't allowe to, at times done so to keep player characters at least playable!

Some requests I agree can get handwaved, I mean there were a few interesting ones recently were active dms actually posted that they couldn't comment, or that they weren't sure on something so they sided with those that know, or had a question but didn't think it their place to ask... wait a minute, you're a dm and you're unsure on a request or but wave it through based on what others say? That's a little odd, right? I mean if a dm who understands the lore is being cried foul of because they hold up a request as not the player isn't understanding the lore then how can a dm who 'doesn't know' agree to a request just to get it past? Swings and roundabouts I guess, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, right?

I love it when people moan about dms not doing something, yet when they do they are doing the wrong something or perhaps more specifically, something that isn't what YOU want. Dms aren't the problem, we are but most refuse to accept that, hence why we hide our faces and complain rather than be constructive! This isn't feedback or even largely constructive, it's moaning and complaining and handing out names of whose to blame because that is all this community seems able to do, kind of like how elections are won? Get people together, point fingers and claim others are at fault yet offer little by way of solution.


Received 4 July, 2022:
I left Amia for Arelith a few years ago like most people. I’ve considered coming back a few times but looking on the forum there is so much hate and hostility toward Arelith and those who left. I can partly understand that, but who honestly can’t understand why someone might prefer Arelith? Huge crowds, more original Amian people than Amia, better systems, etc, etc. Yet I would still like to come back now and then, but the anti Arelith hate always keeps me from it.

Also, the DM team has an infamous rep for cliquishness as many others said. When I played before it was usually in grove, and if Amarice didn’t like you then you were shut out. I am surprised the cliquiest faction leader is a dm and not surprised there are so many allegations of cliqueiness regarding her now. She is a great rper but so many have left because of her due to this cliquiness.

Thank you for listening.


Received 5 July, 2022:
Jes forum avatar makes me feel uncomfortable. This sound like joke or make fun but it is actually serious. I avoid forum b/c of it.


Received July 7, 2022:
Sorry his is late! I read through thread. I was very encouraged to see calls for open feedback since that is shut down in the past. I get depressed when I see Charles censor, but then he relents and I am encouraged again. But then I see no DM apology or step down. If there is this much discontent and all our players are on other servers, why not try a fresh team with a fresh open approach? Old DMs step down and let new blood give it a try. I do not mean myself.

I don’t understand hoe a dm can read this thread, see how people want a change desperately, then decide they will stay as DM. Consider the servers future and let some new blood try.
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Re: Form Feedback - Discussion

Post by Jes »

(Placeholder)
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Re: Form Feedback - Discussion

Post by Jes »

(Placeholder)

Ignore the placeholders, please. xD

Just putting them here for future organization.
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Re: Form Feedback - Discussion

Post by GreatPigeon »

(Placeholder)
I want to be organised too
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Re: Form Feedback - Discussion

Post by Jes »

Posted some more in the first post.
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Re: Form Feedback - Discussion

Post by Jes »

Added two three more at the end of the first post.

Edit: Got another.
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Re: Form Feedback - Discussion

Post by Jes »

For the record, because we got a response that says we can track responders, this is what it looks like when Google Forms collects emails:



-If the form does not have this field and does not state that it collects emails, then we have no way of knowing who fills out the form.

-You can also check the page source on the Feedback Form page to see that it's only an embedded Google Form and there are no sneaky trackers.

Just to clarify.
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Re: Form Feedback - Discussion

Post by GreatPigeon »

It requires you to be logged into Amia forums. My assumption is that the log in information is likely accessible by DM folk / Forum owner. The google forms tend to have a time submitted tracker - I use these for work, they all do. You can use fuzzy joins and rather basic ETL to get a list of all users who were online when each form is submitted. Not saying you are doing that, its not as easy as just grabbing 1 a row from the google form that say CuntPigeon and identifiying me, but if I'm up at 9 AM GMT time and I submit something there's likely only 1-2 people on. Right now there are 8 others online and its a relatively peek time. You might assume that I would not be so derogatory toward the team if I'm on the team and that leave's only 4 people.

According to a friend who runs forums the phpBB hide online session is only on front end but the backend it is still tracked.

So it may not be simple, but you can get a pretty good idea who left what feedback.
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Re: Form Feedback - Discussion

Post by ZoltanTheRed »

GreatPigeon wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 8:31 pm
It requires you to be logged into Amia forums. My assumption is that the log in information is likely accessible by DM folk / Forum owner. The google forms tend to have a time submitted tracker - I use these for work, they all do. You can use fuzzy joins and rather basic ETL to get a list of all users who were online when each form is submitted. Not saying you are doing that, its not as easy as just grabbing 1 a row from the google form that say CuntPigeon and identifiying me, but if I'm up at 9 AM GMT time and I submit something there's likely only 1-2 people on. Right now there are 8 others online and its a relatively peek time. You might assume that I would not be so derogatory toward the team if I'm on the team and that leave's only 4 people.

According to a friend who runs forums the phpBB hide online session is only on front end but the backend it is still tracked.

So it may not be simple, but you can get a pretty good idea who left what feedback.
Ehhh, yeah, but only Jes has access to the forms themselves and that's just not how the google feedback form works. I think the logged in requirement was to avoid bots spamming it.
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Re: Form Feedback - Discussion

Post by Jes »

The only login tracker in the Admin panel is Admin login into the Admin panel. Not all forum logins period (not that I know anything about anyway, and that just sounds superfluous). If that's something you can add through add-ons, it isn't something we use. But I guess if you don't believe me, you don't believe me and it doesn't really matter what I say. But this isn't the place to go if you want to find and target enemies, or whatever.

In fact, I encourage anyone who does end up targeted for their feedback to screenshot that crap and post it here. This is for the betterment of the server. Not to feed egos or trawl for victims to harass.

Most of the feedback we've received so far seems aimed at dissatisfaction with DMs. Perhaps that should be a point of discussion here.


(And yes, the login requirement to access the page was to stop bots. The first iteration I tried without log-in was immediately swamped before I even announced its existence.)
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Re: Form Feedback - Discussion

Post by Elyon »

Interesting that when we can hide behind google forms we're brave enough to single out names.

Anyway, I don't care to hide my identity here so I'll play devil's advocate with the most recent feedback forms. Firstly, I'll state that I'm not here to blame anyone, these are simply my observations/experiences from the recent years as a former DM and a player which anyone is free to refute, expand, or whatever (yay freedom of speech).

DMs stepping down is not going to stop newcomers from stepping up. The notion that members of the team will leave so others can 'take their place and do better', is a fallacy. It's not practical given our numbers today. The team is willing to take on anyone who: 1) Has shown an interest and is willing to sacrifice time & effort into DMing. 2) Is a 'genuine person' i.e. hasn't been an ass (checks on history) and knows how to communicate (e.g. hasn't displayed poor behaviour on discord/forums/OOC ingame channels). 3) Has shown fair activity at the given time of the application. The expectation is /not/ high. Those requirements are not the worst things to ask out of a potential candidate and infact in every players interest, yet you'd think there would be more people stepping up. Look at the player list on discord and think about it. How many can you see that actually fit the three expectations? Realistically, you're not going to find many.

DM nepotism. I accept that it exists however to a lesser extent than it did one-two years ago. For example, you'd see DMs logging on in groups with each other. Requests were easier to DMIG and you could ask other DMs to oversee events because the team was comfortable with each other. Another issue I saw was that some DMs were not grounded to the playerbase enough. They knew their bubble and were detached from the rest of the playerbase. Players wouldn't go to these DMs for help, leaving a lot of burden on more approachable DMs. My critique would be that DMs in general should broaden their horizons by getting to know other players they rarely interact with. This would have given a broader understanding into how the playerbase feels and interacts with the server, then make better choices that are more player-centric. I will say however that certain initiative like collecting and responding to feedback (Hats off to you Charles!) is a good way to break barriers. Frankly, some of the DMs that logged on only for each other are well... not playing or no longer DMs. There was nothing wrong with the team playing with each other by the way, it simply made it look like nepotism. Though the disconnect with the wider playerbase was the issue. It's improved somewhat.

This leads me to the next point. I'll be bold to say not having that level of connection with the playerbase, ergo the server, has lead to some odd decisions and lack of direction. Band aid fixes I remember being so against, like upping epic drop chances to 25% had stifled merchant RP where we've had complaints of the game becoming too easy and having even less to do. Meanwhile anything 'new' appears to be mechanical related (classes etc)- and become an endless scope creep exacerbated by build enthusiasts who continue to suggest changes on every mechanic. These are not things that will sustain our activity, as we've seen evident from the plethora of these additions. They become a hype that dies down and leaves us back to square one in player numbers. Ideally, the focus would have shifted towards the buzz words: player agency, automated systems, random events, economy system, land ownership, all pointing to having things to do without relying on DMs. I appreciate the time and effort dev put into Amia however, I don't believe it's valuable to spend scripting ability on 'nice to haves'- as much as we appreciate them. Bearing in mind this is what I've seen in some months and perhaps priorities have changed.

I'm not here to claim I'm perfect and know what's best for the server. So why am I saying this now? As someone whose spent 2000+ hours on the DM client, the current setup of Amia is not kind to DMs. Even if you ask current DMs to step down and fresh blood to take the mantle, the problem will exist and transfer over to the new blood. The overreliance of DMs to tell their stories and drive plots consistently to keep up with making players happy is never going to be feasible unless you find DMs who is willing to sacrifice too many hours (and has no life), good luck. The team becomes the target of frustrations for not 'trying hard enough', which I'm going to defend because I know how much time it takes to handle maintenance, and plan/create/execute plots makes it all the easier to burn out. The consistent story focus from DMs you're looking for won't happen whilst DMs are not at their best, and they won't be because they are relied on for too many things.

Priority on the things that matter so the team can focus on the story you want would go a long way.

I'm not trying to steer away anyone from joining the team, but don't be fooled if you think you can do better.
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Re: Form Feedback - Discussion

Post by Freaxxshow »

... I'm afraid of bringing up the same things I said before vanishing a year ago, but I think it's more a problem with taking the sole pressure off of DMs a bit, so not everything a Faction or group wants to do needs DMs and less Events run by DMs still carry the group.

I ... Don't know if I word that comprehensibly but like..

Okay I played a bit in another server, on which players were allowed to host events and create minor NPCs and even small side plots themselves. And then there's plots DMs were doing for the factions, which didn't put as much pressure on the DMs because even if they didn't continue for a month, the faction/group was able to do events for themselves, done by the leader or some random player within said group.

I don't think DMs being lazy is the only problem. It just seems that way a lot, except of some specific bad eggs because bro there's only so many hours in a day.

EDIT: oh and, I gotta love the "Need Events for everyone" because I swear to God if there's a new big overarching plot those same voices, me included, will whine about how only the "Amia Allstars" Get to contribute and how everyone else is just background noise.

That's what always happens, partly because of nepotism sure, but mostly because homeboy *try* to meaningfully involve like 30 people at once who are all RPing at the same time while also fighting goes on usually.

I know it's already hard to do with a group of like 5-10 people in faction Events when the leader isn't constantly pushing the other members to the forefront and shit.

And just as a sidenote, more thing to grind wont fix the time between DM run events either because God knows myself and most other people have better things to do than to grind Ressources for hours day after day. Its just work, and there never seems to be an end to it. People come here to play characters and RP, not to run dungeons and click resource nodes. Look at the "MMORPG-Crowd" that cheered for more Raids and Epic Loot, they got bored almost instantly back after the Lich was put in.
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Re: Form Feedback - Discussion

Post by GreatPigeon »

Jes wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:12 pm
The only login tracker in the Admin panel is Admin login into the Admin panel. Not all forum logins period (not that I know anything about anyway, and that just sounds superfluous). If that's something you can add through add-ons, it isn't something we use. But I guess if you don't believe me, you don't believe me and it doesn't really matter what I say. But this isn't the place to go if you want to find and target enemies, or whatever.

In fact, I encourage anyone who does end up targeted for their feedback to screenshot that crap and post it here. This is for the betterment of the server. Not to feed egos or trawl for victims to harass.

Most of the feedback we've received so far seems aimed at dissatisfaction with DMs. Perhaps that should be a point of discussion here.


(And yes, the login requirement to access the page was to stop bots. The first iteration I tried without log-in was immediately swamped before I even announced its existence.)
I openly give my feedback. So I'm personally not concerened.
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Tempurian
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Re: Form Feedback - Discussion

Post by Tempurian »

My opinion is that there is reliance on DM team to get anything. Interactions etc. and especially permissions to play a specific thing or so. At times some requests I feel odd, if I played Aasimar or goodly elf shifter using demonflesh golem shape, the shape feels so out of place. I can request a new skin but need to Rp it first, but I dont really need RP to get demonflesh golem shape. A specific example based on previous request example of my own. To me, it just seems odd. It feels like got get anything, you need to jump through hoops just for the sake of it. Yes, RP should be promoted, but I do feel there are better ways to do this too. If I play a smith to make item, I need to Rp and Rp to get materials, document the rp, Rp the smithing too and again document it to get request approved. Therefore, for me, playing a blacksmith would become such administrative role to play that it aint worth it. At the same time, there should be some real risks involved in events. We get told there are but, I really dont see anything happening to PC's unless player decides it to happen. Dm should be able to tell okay, your character did dum here is your consequence.

Last request just drained all my interest to come online. I felt it unneccessary complication for a mechanical change that is enforced by a class mechanics. Requests are a reflection to the fact that you dont have anything really attainnable to do in IG. With Beaufort I had amazing time working to collect first 5+ set, obtained items and gold through pure grind, selling resources and node spamming and through pure RP. The adjustment made, killed point of merchant Rp, and felt like punishment on merchant roleplayers who used a lot of time to get all items and gold to play a role. Quildhall already makes most items available, just add Gauntlets there and everyone has equal start. Having everything 'equally' easy to obtain makes environment boring for me. If someone places more effort to amass 50 million gold, power to them. If someone grinds to get 100 +5 items to sell to other PCs, power to them. If someone places a lot of time and effort to gain IG influence, power to them.

I don't have a positive view of Discord. Just dont want to get into it more.

At times I feel that if you're not a buddy to members of the team or a team member, you wont get anything done. I do consider that evil players have a lot harder time getting anything through and implemented. Improvement in this seems to be coming, but was too late as majority of Obsidian Island left afaik.

I am now strongly debating what is the point of placing time and effort to build a character in Amia. Mind I am not saying that anywhere else is better. Standing in the guildhall I could manage with Beaufort merchant Rp, others not so much. Participating in events, to me, has felt like I am part of the audience rather than having an active role in shaping the course of it. I actually havent really enjoyed the massive events as I just afk most of the time and check what is happening in the chat every now and then. Kind of felt unnecessary I suppose.

Then... what does work? Well game mechanics have been nice to toy around with. Some very helpful players and Dm's to ask advise from in regards how things could be done. But my luck has been that events planned for my toon had DM's leave due to RL, not their fault tho. Few I did not manage to pull through either. I think I am more here for nostalgy of Beaufort experience. People seemed active then. I do feel that the planned economy system could have helped a lot, just seems the main dev for that left. It is a shame and all the best to you in the journeys to come!

I also will say that some players calling negative things all the time and saying what shit other people are is so taxing to deal with. We all have bad days and things dont always work out, but most of the time DM's will help you out in the context of Amia lore, mechanics and rules. It is also players responsibility to understand what flies sometimes and it does help when DM explains the why behind pyroclastic half-dragon toon is not a realistic idea. In the end, I dont know what could be Amia's salvation, I just think we should take a look into the mirror in our ways of communicating to one another. Me included.

Anyway, my opinions and feelings, not necessarily facts.

Best Regards,
Tempurian
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ZoltanTheRed
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Re: Form Feedback - Discussion

Post by ZoltanTheRed »

Let's start this off right.

First, and foremost: I'm an asshole and that's actually not okay. Me acknowledging a problem isn't the same as solving a problem. But I still need to get this off my chest. This is the version of events as I remember them. I ain't keeping quiet. Delete it and I'll just put it back.

What I am about to say is not a condemnation of the team itself, but an expression of my frustrations with some manufactured drama pulled out of the asses of a couple staff members who are absolutely burned out. Their presence on the team is only protected by loitering on the DM client and spending absurd amounts of hours glaring at the forums. Meanwhile, staff members who put in valuable efforts, who actually do keep a good rapport with players and do go out of their way to listen to feedback are bullied off of the team using weaponized rumors and logs from incidents that exclude much of the context of why the things were being said when they were said. It's honestly bullshit. I'm not afraid of naming them: Mahtan and Charles. Charles even called another member of staff, Albacksen, my lackey and my yesman. Yet, they forced him off the team in February while he was picking up his activity and tried to characterize him as some kind of obnoxious pervert, all based on a very changeable mood of a departed staff member. The straw that broke the camel's back was when it was said Amia will be better off without me, that I'm arrogant (probably true? heh), blunt, vulgar, no filter...yadda yadda yadda, many examples of me raking them over the coals during very fragile periods of Amia's history, a dozen excuses about all the stories having already been told and how it's Jes and I's fault that they don't have the motivation to log in to do a volunteer job that they personally asked repeatedly to do. It's a toxic mischaracterization of things and it's very interesting to me that when Jes left the staff chat, Charles spun some bullshit about her account being hacked when that was not the case. Pardon my French, but what the fuck? Can't you just be straight and genuine with the rest of the staff? Ultimately: It's just a lot of ad hominem, lying, confabulation, and infantilization.

Much of the over-reliance on DMs is by the design of some members of the DM team itself. Insistence that players cannot lead cities or settlements, because it will be abused, or because it will be too much work, or because <insert excuse>. Insistence on needing to okay every hair on the ass of every special character request while the quorum on requests consists of one or two DMs weighing in and the rest just mirroring that opinion. Hell, players can't even congregate as a faction and gain any recognition as one unless they're loitering as a group for a month. Yet, as a staff member, I watched new factions get created by DM team members with very little resistence, Amarice and even Jes getting Yes's on their requests with little to no resistance because some of the DMs who are responsible for the shitty situation the staff is in right now can't be assed to read and have an opinion at all. That's kind of the story of contributions to Amia: Someone wants to do a thing, but the thing probably shouldn't done the way it's wanted because it'll be abused. Now if thing was totally safe and took into account every factor, do it!

There were a lot of plans to move much of the DC request system from the manual system we have now to an in game store (likely using NUI). This was originally suggested by Albacksen a year and some change ago, but he experienced (dismissive) pushback from some of the team (some of the team responsible for me not wanting to even bother anymore) until other teammates spoke favorably on it as well. I think it still has a good chance of happening, but people will need to support the devs on the matter because it's not going to be an easy task to get right. It might be a game, but that's in the realm of game and software development. If anyone knows how to code, reach out to a developer and see how you can help.

I could go on forever. I know I'm an aggressive turd sometimes. But what's left out when that's brought up is that sometimes, something will happen (a player is harassed by another player, a staff member loses their mind) and it will be handled extremely inappropriately. There was an incident where a player was being lured into some very risque RP by another player, who then tried to use that incident to make their PC look like a sexual predator and the player themselves look like a degenerate. One member of staff tried to make it seem like it wasn't even remotely the case, going so far as to downplay and downright ignore hard evidence of the issue. There was a situation where a staff member lost their cool with a problem player, and said problem player had to bear the brunt of the abuse from their very ballistic significant other..and it was just swept under the rug. Problem player still needed a ban, but the punishment didn't fit the crime. There was a lot of twisting of words and distortion of facts and evidence, but I couldn't let it slide.

Done being the bad guy. Seeya. Still helping Frozen-ass. The server isn't going anywhere. He's good at learning, so believe me that it's in good hands.
Last edited by ZoltanTheRed on Thu Jun 30, 2022 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ZoltanTheRed
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Re: Form Feedback - Discussion

Post by ZoltanTheRed »

I'm being dead serious when I say if anyone in this thread is censored, the hammer will drop in a very unholy way. Speak your mind, but at least keep it factual and to the point.
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Albacksen
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Re: Form Feedback - Discussion

Post by Albacksen »

The whole idea that Jes and Zoltan show nepotism towards me is patently false, that criticism has to be taken with a large helping of salt. My first time joining the team, it was Elyon, not Zoltan or Jes that questioned the initial bad rep about me some DMs had spread and gave me a chance.
When I "stepped down" last time, it was a decision made on my behalf, as Zoltan said. To be charitable it was a decision some DMs questioned after the fact. Zoltan backed that decision in an attempt to be impartial.
Fact is, Zoltan and Jes many times intentionally DO NOT support me because they are so afraid of being accused of nepotism or the "optics" of it all. That's the environment that has been bred.
I'm afraid to provide feedback agreeing with them for the same reason.
What are my choices? If I agree, I'm called a yes man. If I disagree, what tale will be spun by my detractors then? That I'm playing 4d chess to avoid being accused of favouritism?
I disagree with Zoltan and Jes just as much as I might with the rest of the team, somehow we manage to stay friends. If they tap me for my opinion on something, I might agree, or disagree.
But I am an individual with my own opinions, not someone's lackey. If you think for a second anything else, you do not know me and should question your own judgement.

That being said, I'm not a very disagreeable person by nature. I try to be polite and charitable and to meet people halfway. That sentiment becomes a problem when it is not reciprocated, but abused. All that happens if you meet a bully halfway, all they do is walk the rest of the way and trample all over you. This was my experience with a certain staffer that made it his mission to make me feel very, very uncomfortable about my presence on the server, nevermind any return to the team.

I do not appreciate having been smeared by (some of) the team in my absence as some sort of turbo degenerate obnoxious pervert because of one (out of my many many) characters being flirtatious, an aspect I toned down significantly when that rumour reached me through the grapevine. This is a character I now barely play anymore because how fun is it really to play a character when it constantly gets you as a player questioned and judged by people you assume know better than to engage in that that sort of behavior?

I believe I had a good relationship with most of the team once. As mentioned earlier, I know a few spoke up when I was driven off last time. Not while it was happening. Only after I was driven off. But I’ll give partial credit for that, unhelpful as hindsight after inaction is. What I was told was that the ENTIRE TEAM was in agreement. This was without me being even poked or asked or questioned. Both times my activity was questioned happened point blank in unrelated meetings that were more broadly about direction of the server.
As much as that might rankle me in the recounting, that isn't really even my main source of contention. I was happy enough doing Devwork and play a new character. But that is when the smear campaign started and my motivation plummeted into the earth and created a crater I’m only just climbing out of.

The fact that I am still being questioned, but someone who instigated this vendetta against me, and staffers with more inactivity and more complaints levied against them than me get nowhere near as much shit as me is tiring as all hell. That shit gets glossed over. It puts me off working on the server either as a dev or dm. I love the players, but dear god the team is not internally consistent at all. No amount of arbitrary bureaucracy is going to solve that. Some bookkeeping. Yes. But not to the point where it overtakes the act of just you know. Getting on and running things. I want to help Amia, but I don't want to be at the expense at me or anyone elses mental health.

Where did I get favourable treatment? Every time I got on the team I've been questioned excessively.
Whom have I given favourable treatment to? Anyone on the server can ask me for a personal plot. That is my specialization. I live for that stuff.
I think for my own part, what's best for me is to focus on what I like doing, which is telling stories. If the best place for that isn't on the server then I will just move on.
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Freaxxshow
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Re: Form Feedback - Discussion

Post by Freaxxshow »

ZoltanTheRed wrote:
Thu Jun 30, 2022 2:01 pm
[...] Much of the over-reliance on DMs is by the design of some members of the DM team itself. Insistence that players cannot lead cities or settlements, because it will be abused, or because it will be too much work [...}
I brought this exact problem forth to you over a year ago, and you told me exactly that excuse. Don't leave now and throw shit on everyone else on the team to make yourself seem any better, Zoltan. I can even pick out the god damn Discord excerpts of you telling me these *exact* excuses.

I'm just not gonna comment on your other "my side of the story" takes about DM Drama, I'd just advise everyone reading it to take it with a big, fat, massive ladle of Salt.
This one's to the mighty sea, mischief, gold and piracy!~
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ZoltanTheRed
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Re: Form Feedback - Discussion

Post by ZoltanTheRed »

Freaxxshow wrote:
Thu Jun 30, 2022 6:09 pm
ZoltanTheRed wrote:
Thu Jun 30, 2022 2:01 pm
[...] Much of the over-reliance on DMs is by the design of some members of the DM team itself. Insistence that players cannot lead cities or settlements, because it will be abused, or because it will be too much work [...}
I brought this exact problem forth to you over a year ago, and you told me exactly that excuse. Don't leave now and throw shit on everyone else on the team to make yourself seem any better, Zoltan. I can even pick out the god damn Discord excerpts of you telling me these *exact* excuses.

I'm just not gonna comment on your other "my side of the story" takes about DM Drama, I'd just advise everyone reading it to take it with a big, fat, massive ladle of Salt.
Cool. Do it.

Edit: He really does. I'm just not concerned with what someone who excessively drops the c word and racist epithets casually has to say.
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charles1810
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Re: Form Feedback - Discussion

Post by charles1810 »

Going to just clean this up a bit. The intentions of this is not to attack people. Please if there is issues n conflict let's talk about it privately and handled the situation.
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charles1810
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Feed back thread getting out of control

Post by charles1810 »

Just move out of control things here from there
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Bag of Felt
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Re: Form Feedback - Discussion

Post by Bag of Felt »

Alright, this is getting out of hand.

We are looking for CONSTRUCTIVE comments that we can work with.
The bag of felt holds the jewels of fate.
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ZoltanTheRed
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Re: Form Feedback - Discussion

Post by ZoltanTheRed »

You were warned.
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Maverick00053
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Re: Form Feedback - Discussion

Post by Maverick00053 »

Jesus guys.

Alright I merged everything back together so everyone can get everything out of their systems.

Please try and be respectful and have some valid discussions. Present points, let people respond, and try to fix the issues at hand.

I won't tolerate senseless fighting or bullshit name calling going forward. Be constructive, and you are certainly welcome to be critical to others but don't be an asshole for the sake of being an asshole. Can we agree to that?
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Puresoul
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Re: Form Feedback - Discussion

Post by Puresoul »

You know. I was to compile my own constructive feedback but anything I say may just be deleted anyway. So here is mine: It wasn't very smart of you to kick me off the dev team.
Devlin Faramond - Warrior Priest of Tempus
Aithne The Red - Red Dragon Disciple, Leader of the Obsidian isle and Bronze Dragon Slayer
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charles1810
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Re: Form Feedback - Discussion

Post by charles1810 »

I will say anything no matter how harsh or anything going forward will not be deleted or removed by myself. So feel free to go all out n say or post what you like.
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Raua
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Re: Form Feedback - Discussion

Post by Raua »

All I’ll say is; Im still alive, I have forgotten nothing, and I see it.
Seen as [DEV] Raua or...

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Freaxxshow
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Re: Form Feedback - Discussion

Post by Freaxxshow »

I'll start a different question:

Why do you people still stick around on Amia, aside from nostalgia/just being used to it/connection to your old characters and places.

When I ask myself that, I can't come up with anything. All other NWN servers are better at everything except maybe the amount of scripts. If all that scripting really makes a good server, idk
This one's to the mighty sea, mischief, gold and piracy!~
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Puresoul
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Re: Form Feedback - Discussion

Post by Puresoul »

Where should I start? My mistreatment as a staff member? That Devs DO NOT have an EQUAL SAY on staff and are second-class citizens despite doing the harder work? The moaning and groaning behind my back for not slaving away fast enough? The disgustingly poor communication on staff? or perhaps A LITERAL INQUISITION (Who is no longer staff) that demoralized me to all hell? I told you I needed a break, but no one followed up and whoever started talking about me as a dev responded with a punch in the face.

As a reminder: I am HUMAN, not a machine. This was all after COVID and my health had declined both mentally and physically. I don't expect an apology for my mistreatment since it's clear some of the staff are too busy swimming in their own self-importance and are convinced they could NEVER be wrong.

As for Amia.. well. Much of the feed back has already spoken for me.

Sorry if all seems a little aggressive but I needed this.
Devlin Faramond - Warrior Priest of Tempus
Aithne The Red - Red Dragon Disciple, Leader of the Obsidian isle and Bronze Dragon Slayer
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Pinkhaml86
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Re: Form Feedback - Discussion

Post by Pinkhaml86 »

I've always kindof been pretty neutral in alot of aspects on the server. Friends with staff, friends with players, mediation between the two on more than one occasion.

But I've never really understood some stuff.
Why...on earth...does there always seem to be a massive political power struggle in the background. I'm not talking IG I'm talking topside. As Mrs Potter would say "a tale as old as time"

It stems back to when I first started here 10 years ago, or longer. Idk.

Yes I understand difference of opinions, creative differences, artistic freedom. And all of that is beneficial to a community. So why the animosity towards it?

Someone doesn't like the way you dm, ok, let's ask them "why? Is there something I can do better to improve your experience in my events?" I don't think flipping out and trashing that person is the way to go.

You don't like the way someone speaks. Ok, is it because you don't understand where they are from? So freax drops big Cs too often, it's also a daily used word on TV and billboards where he's from.

Devs not doing the thing they aren't paid to do the way or the time frame that you want it. Well....then apply to be a dev and do it yourself....

Like honestly guys. The vast majority have been playing together on this specific server for an excessively large part of our adult (and some, entire) lives. What has scorned you so bad that we need to fight light this? We're a fucking community. I've made friends on this server that I've had longer than some of my friends I see in person. When my dog needed extreme dental work so many of you helped me out. That's what a community does. Who hurt you? Who made you this mad? Like....I'm hurt to see this talk and name calling. Because I know we are all better than this.

End rant.
Logan.
Tempest Rayne - "a'lil 'ide an'seek luv?"
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Karrados
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Re: Form Feedback - Discussion

Post by Karrados »

Edit: Placeholder for now.
Last edited by Karrados on Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Elorathall
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Re: Form Feedback - Discussion

Post by Elorathall »

I had only a brief stint as a DM. Brief because:
a) I started a new professional project and went through the process of buying my first real estate at the same time, and that sucked up all my time and energy,
b) whatever toxicity the player community experiences is but a spill-over of the bubbling vat behind the DM curtain (as this thread proves)
c) I had no clue what Amia is about anymore, or what to do DM-side that I felt creative pride in doing. There's no clear vision or sense of direction, no defined theme, no very necessary limitations. Which contributes to point b.

That said, players:

As far as I can tell, the combination of being expected/forced to deal with certain problem players + being too tolerant/lack of willingness to tell said players to grow up = an apprehension among longtime DM's of enabling any meaningful IC conflict that might lead said players (universally suffering from protagonist syndrome) to get their feefee's hurt and throw DM-directed hissy fits. And so, now we have a "game" that's impossible to lose. And it's the dullest thing. Amia has been allowed to become a light RP chatroom with some minigames. Congrats, losers.

That said, DM's:

Amia can be revived again, by reducing the scope of what it tries to do, and who it tries to do it for. The mark of failing businesses and products is lack of niche. No focus, no value. Don't try to cater to everyone, you'll please nobody. Don't make it a swiss army knife. Make it a really good wrench. Pick a distinct setting, build a distinct narrative, and build/select your supporting mechanics accordingly (which will help get the most of our very limited Dev capacity).
A PW set in Khem that revolves around the conflict of Chaotic Faeruhnian Individualism clashing with Lawful Mulhorandi Traditionalism sounds baller. Rhuathym could be The Witcher: the PW - and that's not a bad thing. Fuck it, make Barak Runedar the core of the server and have a dwarven culture dominated setting for once. Don't care what direction you pick, but pick one.
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GreatPigeon
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Re: Form Feedback - Discussion

Post by GreatPigeon »

Raua wrote:
Thu Jun 30, 2022 8:07 pm
All I’ll say is; Im still alive, I have forgotten nothing, and I see it.
HEY! I love your underwater area. It is so fucking pretty.
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GreatPigeon
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Re: Form Feedback - Discussion

Post by GreatPigeon »

Elorathall wrote:
Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:29 pm
A PW set in Khem that revolves around the conflict of Chaotic Faeruhnian Individualism clashing with Lawful Mulhorandi Traditionalism sounds baller. Rhuathym could be The Witcher: the PW - and that's not a bad thing.
Don't threaten me with a good time
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Opustus
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Re: Form Feedback - Discussion

Post by Opustus »

My utopia:

- Jes is benevolent dictator, sets direction and runs a tight ship. Nips nonsense in the bud. Among the smaller circle of DMs and devs congeniality and clarity prevails.

- Zoltan heads the technical side of development. Big strokes mainly. Feature bloat is stopped so devs who never signed up to fix half-assed random projects that got prematurely pushed to live don't ever have to do that. Broken things fixed or if bloaty and uninspired just grandfathered, so no one has to bother with it again.

- All requests put on pause, team sorts what's important and why for players to keep getting and what really needs DM supervision. Anything that's time-consuming busywork for DMs is just removed indefinitely.

I love Amia, amen.
robbi320
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Re: Form Feedback - Discussion

Post by robbi320 »

ZoltanTheRed wrote:
Thu Jun 30, 2022 2:01 pm
asshole [...] bullshit [...] bullshit [...] fuck [...] ass [...] shitty [...] assed
ZoltanTheRed wrote:
Thu Jun 30, 2022 6:33 pm
I'm just not concerned with what someone who excessively drops the c word and racist epithets casually has to say.
Glass house, meet stone. Let's not act like I couldn't get more examples, perhaps even more colorful language, with some digging. Personally, I don't care how people express themselves. But it's so easy to fling shit at everyone. Just try not to get too much on your own hands, eh?


My personal, general feedback? DMs (or Administrators, or Develepors, or whatever) seem to think themselves better than the players. They're not. No matter how often they realise that they're dicks, no matter how many times they say they'll try to be better, no matter how often they apologise. Hell, this forum topic has existed for longer than I've played on the server. Different players, different DM teams, different superficial issues. Everytime, the discussion gets shut down, and people are afraid to talk. "It'd look bad if a new player saw this". "Whoever censors this will suffer (but trust me, self-admitted "asshole", that I'm not gonna make hell-fire rain upon you if you call me out)". It doesn't matter that you claim to take feedback to heart. I've been around long enough to know that the DM team is human. And humans are spiteful, petty, and want to see the people they hate suffer. And most of all, they're hypocritical.

A big issue I've always seen is this: People call the circumstances around Albacksen nepotism. Hell, I've thrown around enough accusations akin to nepotism and favoritism back when I still cared. In my mind, the issue isn't that Albacksen definitively is, or is not, nepotism. The issue is that it seems weird that, right around the time when there's talks about cleaning up the DM staff, someone who didn't seem like the most active, but was close to both Zoltan and Jes suddenly became DM. Do I know who else applied and got rejected? No. Do I know who else was close to Jes and Zoltan who didn't become DMs? No. (Well, to a limited extent yes, but the grand picture isn't/wasn't fully visible)
The same issue has been around for ages. The lack of transparency, coupled with a lack of trust due to the Original Sin of previous DM teams, and seeing some shady business on the whenever-current DM team can easily lead to a completely cynical view that the DM team is utterly and irredeemably corrupt. But then, there's the issue with corruption. Saying "Trust me bro, I'm totally not corrupt" doesn't mean you're not corrupt. And people don't dare voice the question loud, because at best, they'll get a resounding "no, nothing corrupt going on", with a bunch of PM saying "I agree, it reeks of corruption". I don't think the DM team knows how many people think of them as corrupt. It's always just the "dumb shitposters" who come back to the server to shitpost, because they're spiteful of how the server moved on without them. But it's not that. We come here, to "shitpost", because nobody playing here wants to admit that this is what they're thinking, and we no longer care what happens. If you don't like what I say, ban me. You won't hurt me with a ban. Three years ago, before I left. I was thinking the same. I just didn't have the balls to voice it, because back then, I would've cared if I'd gotten banned. Hell, I've been thinking it for six years. Playing the server is way easier if they DMs don't hate you.
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Albacksen
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Re: Form Feedback - Discussion

Post by Albacksen »

Elorathall wrote:
Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:29 pm
About players:

As far as I can tell, the combination of being expected/forced to deal with certain problem players + being too tolerant/lack of willingness to tell said players to grow up = an apprehension among longtime DM's of enabling any meaningful IC conflict that might lead said players (universally suffering from protagonist syndrome) to get their feefee's hurt and throw DM-directed hissy fits. And so, now we have a "game" that's impossible to lose. And it's the dullest thing. Amia has been allowed to become a light RP chatroom with some minigames. Congrats, losers.
Handling people is very difficult. And the DMs are not always in agreement how a problem should be dealt with. It's easy for bad faith actors to stir up shit because they can. I've seen these problem players come and go. Stir up shit, throw a fit, be banned or leave on their own accord and come back. I do agree with your assessment that the setting is in something of a lul. And that good guys tend to default to winning in the long run. So maybe we see different causes for the dullness, as you call it.
Elorathall wrote:
Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:29 pm
About DM's:

Amia can be revived again, by reducing the scope of what it tries to do, and who it tries to do it for. The mark of failing businesses and products is lack of niche. No focus, no value. Don't try to cater to everyone, you'll please nobody. Don't make it a swiss army knife. Make it a really good wrench. Pick a distinct setting, build a distinct narrative, and build/select your supporting mechanics accordingly (which will help get the most of our very limited Dev capacity).
A PW set in Khem that revolves around the conflict of Chaotic Faeruhnian Individualism clashing with Lawful Mulhorandi Traditionalism sounds baller. Rhuathym could be The Witcher: the PW - and that's not a bad thing. Fuck it, make Barak Runedar the core of the server and have a dwarven culture dominated setting for once. Don't care what direction you pick, but pick one.
I may not agree with the solutions as presented, but it is certainly directions we -could- go. I'm sure the intention is for there to be a lot of variation. But the flip side of that coin is bloat. The problem with junking 80% of the server is which part to junk and what to keep. As whatever we'd do in that regard, some would love it, some would hate it, but none would agree. Maybe you're ultimately right, I don't know. I certainly don't have all the answers. Certainly the question of focus is fertile ground for further discussion.
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Albacksen
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Re: Form Feedback - Discussion

Post by Albacksen »

robbi320 wrote:
Thu Jun 30, 2022 10:26 pm
ZoltanTheRed wrote:
Thu Jun 30, 2022 2:01 pm
asshole [...] bullshit [...] bullshit [...] fuck [...] ass [...] shitty [...] assed
ZoltanTheRed wrote:
Thu Jun 30, 2022 6:33 pm
I'm just not concerned with what someone who excessively drops the c word and racist epithets casually has to say.
Glass house, meet stone. Let's not act like I couldn't get more examples, perhaps even more colorful language, with some digging. Personally, I don't care how people express themselves. But it's so easy to fling shit at everyone. Just try not to get too much on your own hands, eh?


My personal, general feedback? DMs (or Administrators, or Develepors, or whatever) seem to think themselves better than the players. They're not. No matter how often they realise that they're dicks, no matter how many times they say they'll try to be better, no matter how often they apologise. Hell, this forum topic has existed for longer than I've played on the server. Different players, different DM teams, different superficial issues. Everytime, the discussion gets shut down, and people are afraid to talk. "It'd look bad if a new player saw this". "Whoever censors this will suffer (but trust me, self-admitted "asshole", that I'm not gonna make hell-fire rain upon you if you call me out)". It doesn't matter that you claim to take feedback to heart. I've been around long enough to know that the DM team is human. And humans are spiteful, petty, and want to see the people they hate suffer. And most of all, they're hypocritical.

A big issue I've always seen is this: People call the circumstances around Albacksen nepotism. Hell, I've thrown around enough accusations akin to nepotism and favoritism back when I still cared. In my mind, the issue isn't that Albacksen definitively is, or is not, nepotism. The issue is that it seems weird that, right around the time when there's talks about cleaning up the DM staff, someone who didn't seem like the most active, but was close to both Zoltan and Jes suddenly became DM. Do I know who else applied and got rejected? No. Do I know who else was close to Jes and Zoltan who didn't become DMs? No. (Well, to a limited extent yes, but the grand picture isn't/wasn't fully visible)
The same issue has been around for ages. The lack of transparency, coupled with a lack of trust due to the Original Sin of previous DM teams, and seeing some shady business on the whenever-current DM team can easily lead to a completely cynical view that the DM team is utterly and irredeemably corrupt. But then, there's the issue with corruption. Saying "Trust me bro, I'm totally not corrupt" doesn't mean you're not corrupt. And people don't dare voice the question loud, because at best, they'll get a resounding "no, nothing corrupt going on", with a bunch of PM saying "I agree, it reeks of corruption". I don't think the DM team knows how many people think of them as corrupt. It's always just the "dumb shitposters" who come back to the server to shitpost, because they're spiteful of how the server moved on without them. But it's not that. We come here, to "shitpost", because nobody playing here wants to admit that this is what they're thinking, and we no longer care what happens. If you don't like what I say, ban me. You won't hurt me with a ban. Three years ago, before I left. I was thinking the same. I just didn't have the balls to voice it, because back then, I would've cared if I'd gotten banned. Hell, I've been thinking it for six years. Playing the server is way easier if they DMs don't hate you.
I've posted my thoughts on this Schröedinger's nepotism. I don't have anything else to add on that topic.

I am curious however to mine you for suggestions and something a bit more substantive. What can the team do? What are the solutions here we are too in the clouds to see?
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Budly
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Re: Form Feedback - Discussion

Post by Budly »

Jesus, fellas, what are you all up to? Even I, dragging myself out from my NWN free rock im hiding under. Im banned to the void on Amia. I have no stakes in the game.

I will out right point at you all from an outside perspect, you all are ruining Amia with all of this infighting. Amia is an old legacy server with history in the community. Players, Devs, DMs and so on, act like it. I was never the most popular player nor the easiest to work with, so my opinion might be irrelevant or I would even say it is. But you all together as a community holds this by online community standards, past the middle ages server going. As a community you all need to come together to try to turn this ship around. Trust me, I put my ears to the road, I know about issues in Arelith, I know of POTM and the drama that server had, both of them survived and thrive. Amia can thrive even with the issues and social dissonance in the team and among the players. You cannot like everyone, you cannot agree with everything, but you can meet on the middle ground. It is not hard if you care about something.

I will drop out again, but people, seriously, you're a community, care about it. Talk, discuss, act civil. You're scaring new blood away with these arguements. And as an opinion of my own, the server is way to big for the size of the current community. No idea whats going on, on server these days! And just cutting away at content now is hard without making someone disappointed, but to centralize the hubs which I believe has been done and make it easier for players to act without DM. Amias biggest flaw is really how DM centered it is, which ends up in burn out of DMs quicker than usual from what I experienced. How that can be solved I have no clue, but other servers can pull it off. Less is more at times, not all plots need to be world ending.

Now im crawling off again, to bitter matches in Dota 2, my own PnP projects and such things. Ironic coming from one of the most bitter players the server had, but try to care for your community and remember the legacy you harbour. It is delicate, filled with nostalgia and sentimentality. Fuel that passion you all have in your posts into Amia. Since clearly it is there.
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robbi320
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Re: Form Feedback - Discussion

Post by robbi320 »

Albacksen wrote:
Thu Jun 30, 2022 11:21 pm
I am curious however to mine you for suggestions and something a bit more substantive. What can the team do? What are the solutions here we are too in the clouds to see?
I'll preface this by saying that Albacksen was mostly after my time, and most of my "you"s in this post are a general you addressed at the DM team, not Albacksen in particular. In the spirit of "schrödingers nepotism", as you so well put it, I just felt it fair to make it clear it's not a personal attack on you. If you see it as a general attack on the DM team as a whole, I suppose you could see it that way.

I'm pretty sure you won't like my solution: Admit defeat. Own up to your mistakes. Take responsibility that, perhaps not because of the current, but at least under their leadership, Amia is dying. It's been dying for a long time. Can this be laid, fully and completely, at you, Albacksen's, feet? No. Did you have a part to play in it? Maybe.
I'll fully admit, I'm not *exactly* out for constructive criticism. I'm beyond that. My gut instinct is to call for heads to roll. And, I'll be honest, I don't think, if I really thought about it, there'd be a single DM spared, if I started naming names. Whether it's inactivity, a lack of ability in fixing the server despite an apparent willingness to do so, or outright maliciousness. I really do think the only way the server is ever going to be a decent place is it's run by decent DMs, and has decent players. Adn for that, every single person has to look in the mirror, and genuinely come to the conclusion that they're dioing the best to their ability. And saying "I see the errors of my ways" is not enough. Either you step up to the plate, try to fix it, or you step down as a DM. I like to think I had a mostly amiable relationship with most people on the server. From talking with people, plenty of folks are aware of their failings. Is it hard to work on them? Fuck yeah. But if you're not able to work on it, or you're not able to overcome them, you might simply not be the correct person for the job.
And if you don't realise your failings, and blame everyone but yourself for being loathed, it might be the correct action to step down, when people have had enough and are demanding heads to roll. Can you make everyone happy? No. But if a large amount of people despise you, it might be time to step down.

Yes, I know, I'm mean. I'm saying "you (in this case not necessarily referring to you, Albacksen, but a general "you") suck and should step down". And I do realise that if too many people step down, the server will die. But, unless something massively changed in the last year, the player numbers aren't exactly optimistic. I don't have a horse in this race. I stopped caring when I realised I got more enjoyment in carving into my own flesh than playing Amia, and I stopped playing some time after that. But if you really care about the server, listen to people talk. and let them talk, even if you don't like what they say. Don't just call them bad faith actors. I like to think I am not acting in bad faith. I don't care whether the server dies. If I hadn't been sent a link to this topic, I wouldn't have even given amia a single thought. I know of plenty of folks who tried to do good, and got called bad faith actors. Part of it is simply that not every idea works for everyone. (Which means my half-assed attempt at getting folks to think about whether they really helped move the server in a positive direction might not work. Hell, it probably won't work) Part if it, though, is that handling criticism is hard. And depending how you deal with it, you might simply be affirmed in the fact that people are out to get you. That's probably not true. All these people coming here in bad faith... Probably didn't come here in bad faith. Some small amount might have, but most of them came here to play NWN on a cool social/roleplay server. They played for a while, until they realised the flaws. Some objective, some subjective. After playing for a while, they voiced their concerns about the flaws. But seeing as the DM team has dealt with supposed bad faith actors for over ten years, they were simply dismissed as trolls. In their idiotic naïveté, they continued playing here, growing attached to their characters, and glossing over the flaws. Until, at some point, they no longer could. They spke up, and just as always, a mix of "we're doing our best", "we realise we did things wrong, but will try to be better", and "you're just a troll trying to sow dissent". Some grew bitter, some just learned to put their heads down and ignore the flaws, and some tried to work to rectify the flaws. But all of them did that because they see the potential in the server, not simply for the sake of being a dick to people online. Over the years, I've talked to many people who used to play here, and it's similar stories all over. Different players, different DM teams, different superficial circumstances. Hell, from my experience, the people who are in the process of leaving the server are those who are most likely to talk about their issues with the server. After all, they've been playing here, and decided to stop doing so. They clearly enjoyed the server for a while.

And I suppose that's my suggestion: Listen to the playerbase. Assume their suggestions are in good faith. No matter how bitter they seem, no matter how idiotic you think the player or the idea is. It's coming from a place of passion. If it's a bad idea, or you realise the player wanted something from the server you can't offer? Maybe it's best they leave. But, for god's sake, keep in contact with the players! Not just the yes-men. Not just the people who are happy with the server. And if someone voices their concerns, listen to them.

And for god's sake. If you've been on the team for any amount of time, think about whether the shoddy state of the server is part of your doing. There's a decent chance it is. If not, think about who is responsible for it. It is someone in leadership, that's for certain. Who? Amia has never been transparent enough to definitely say that. And each "side" in this behind-the-scenes power struggle will insist it's not them. Maybe it's time for a purge. A proper one. Whoever has the physical (or digital) ownership of the server? You better stay the fuck away from any sort of server politics. Your job is to keep the server up, not shut it down if you dislike what's being said on the forums. I know, separation of powers sucks if you're short-staffed. If you're the go-to person in charge of the general direction of the server, and the server goes to shit? It might be time to own up to it, step down (properly, and completely) and let whoever is unlucky enough to be the one who picks up the reigns after you to clean up the mess. If you keep ruling the server you were doing, don't expect anything to change.
Rebuilding trust takes time. And you'll be stuck in a really shitty situation in the interim. But that's what happens when you fuck up, and it blows up in your face. The fact is, there's a large, silent playerbase that lost their trust in the leadership. I'm not sure how many these days, since I've not been actively checking the forums in a long time. But based on this topic, they're still there. And some of them still care. Try to being your own house in order. As soon as that is done, and only then, look to your neighbor. To end it on somewhat of a downer, many people, me included, no longer care. If you like it as it is, go ahead, keep going. I said my piece, and I'm not coming back to play here for a long time, if ever. If you don't want to listen, I'm powerless to stop you. But don't expect a massive increase in numbers, as long as this stain is on the server.
VecnasCurse
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Re: Form Feedback - Discussion

Post by VecnasCurse »

new here. holy crap it's just a game. sons, daughters, go touch grass.
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Albacksen
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Re: Form Feedback - Discussion

Post by Albacksen »

VecnasCurse wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 2:13 am
new here. holy crap it's just a game. sons, daughters, go touch grass.
That actually got a chuckle out of me.
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TheImpregnableDerp
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Re: Form Feedback - Discussion

Post by TheImpregnableDerp »

VecnasCurse wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 2:13 am
new here. holy crap it's just a game. sons, daughters, go touch grass.
Image

(I have nothing else I just wanted to post this calming grass gif for the community's mental health)
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Albacksen
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Re: Form Feedback - Discussion

Post by Albacksen »

TheImpregnableDerp wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:09 am
(I have nothing else I just wanted to post this calming grass gif for the community's mental health)
Thanks bud.
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Freaxxshow
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Re: Form Feedback - Discussion

Post by Freaxxshow »

I'm getting deja Vu here.

Call me crazy, but I don't think any of this is gonna go anywhere.
This one's to the mighty sea, mischief, gold and piracy!~
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Albacksen
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Re: Form Feedback - Discussion

Post by Albacksen »

Freaxxshow wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:48 am
I'm getting deja Vu here.

Call me crazy, but I don't think any of this is gonna go anywhere.
More. What do we do from here? Where do we go?

I'm interested in ideas. Solutions. Even if it's just the little seedling of an idea.
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chefwudan
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Re: Form Feedback - Discussion

Post by chefwudan »

IMO one of the biggest issues with Amia is a lack of transparency. There are way to many backroom dealings that involve the entire player base that are decided by a few. The player base should be able to have an equal share of deciding server direction and even dev projects. One thing I've seen people bring up repeatedly is that much of the dev time is put into adding wants and not needs, such as Centaurs and many other prestige classes that aren't really needed for the advancement of the server story. Who is making these decisions? Are these decisions being made because a few people want them? Also... to avoid these nepotism claims staff members requests should all be made publicly for all to see how the request process works. That way if someone makes a similar request and get approved or disapproved we can have a benchmark to go by. I cannot emphasize enough have transparency can solve almost Every Complaint I see posted here. It's clear to me there is not enough especially with requrds to the staff. And I'm not saying everyone is being nefarious. But clearly something is going on for some much vitrol to be spouted in this forum.
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Tempurian
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Re: Form Feedback - Discussion

Post by Tempurian »

I also dont think this is heading anywhere. The fact is that the discussion is only taking place because the server was held as ransom to enforce opening this discussion. Otherwise, it was already cencored and indicating lack of interest from team side to have such hard discussion. Considering , by my understanding, the server upkeep have been paid by donations from multiple people, it is a disrespectful towards them to just take server as ransom. One person enforcing discussion, while intention may be good. At the same time Zoltan, while I respect the work you have done in scripting, I may not agree with your method here.

On the nepotism part I dont know if it is there or not, however, I do know that certain dm peoples requests tend to get easy yes and also easy implemention IG. When I started, Fort Cystana was nothing and in span of 3 months it became a fort, now Kohlingen is cleaned. Obsidian Island did ton of work, but it got nothing in that span of three months. That is my view on the matter. What I learned is that in order to get things, try to involve DM players or be on good side of the Dm's. Or have a DM players leading the faction. Which is shit. A bunch of non-dm players cant get things done.

The fact that DM characters become leaders, or leader players of places become DM's, automatically have a certain proclivity to see their things move on. I also think you cant go against a character played by a Dm, as it would lead to automatic loss.

Make Amia interesting, stop making it being 'easy' place for everyone. There is not challenge if everything is so damn available to be obtained from shops. Make secret stores that people have to search and learn about, some may complain it is not fair for new people... they can damn RP and ask from other players characters. That is the whole point. I hate to see in Discord people just asking... cant find, where is it.. Why wont you ask IC and IG. Understandable if you have already done those, or your timezone has no people, but in most cases it has not been done. Use forum posts to get information or something.

Requests, just seem like a hoop system you need to jump through and learn how to satisfy specific DM's perspective on lore to get a yes. D&D should be about fantasy and magic and here we are discussing exact methods how a shield was made and wheter it makes sense or not or is realistic. Some standards need to be used, but some are just ridiculous.

What comes to the general direction, would be amazing is such story approach could be done. However, I dont see many team members actively here discussing. Perhaps they are waiting more discussion before weighting in, but I do hope that most of the team would involve in the discussion. Otherwise it is just one Dm trying again, and nothing moving forward.
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charles1810
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Re: Form Feedback - Discussion

Post by charles1810 »

Will be open behind the scenes we attempted n been for the last few days try to clear the air of a lot of issues this is than the result of that. I've been pushing empowering n merging both the dm and dev team into the same team with having complete equal say in subjects with restructuring obligations in writing to uphold to remove any perspective of double standards. I've stopped commenting on a lot of things here because same reason I moved the topics and asked for us to discuss it in a better manner after numberious other team members and players asked for it to be locked or moved, that being this in my eyes isn't what feedback is for as at the time it was just a method to attack different people. I apologize if that was wrong of me, and thus said feel free to go ahead n say whatever anyone wants.
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