Shifter Redesigned! Information/Feedback Inside.

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Maverick00053
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Shifter Redesigned! Information/Feedback Inside.

Post by Maverick00053 »

Hello everyone! I hope everyone has had a good holiday season. So here is the new big thing.

I was digging through the code to fix some crashing issues involved with Shifter, and since I was knee deep in it set out to revamp it from the ground up.

All shifters will have to have a mandated rebuild. As long as your rebuild is still primarily shifter we will allow you a free rebuild into a new fitting build. One exception, which will require a request so we can work out the details is if you wish to rebuild out of BG/PM/RDD that is on your shifter.

When is this expected to release? Well as of this post all of the hak work, code work, and other stuff is finished. We still need to test, break, and tweak stuff before public release. I wanted to release this now for two reasons. So we don't just spring this upon everyone, and also so I can get more feed back.

Shifter is now a BASE CLASS

New Shifter Revamp wrote:Hit die: d8

Proficiencies: Light + Medium Armor, Druid Prof, Creature Weapon Prof

Skill points: 4 + int modifier

Skills: animal empathy, concentration, craft armor, craft trap, craft weapon, heal, hide, listen, lore, move silently, persuade, spot

Primary saving throw(s): fortitude, reflex

Base attack bonus: +3/4 levels

1. Wildshape, Nature Sense
2. Woodland Stride
3. Greater Wildshape I (Wyrmlings), Trackless Step
4. Resist Nature Lure
5.
6. Greater Wildshape II (Harpy, Gargoyle, Minotaur)
7.
8.
9. Greater Wildshape III (Basilisk, Drider, Manticore)
10.
11.
12. Humanoid Shape (Drow Warrior, Lizardfolk Whipmaster, Kobold Commando)
13.
14.
15. Greater Wildshape IV (Dire Tiger, Medusa, Mindflayer)
16.
17.
18. Humanoid Shape II (Dwarf Defender, Ogre Stomper, and Yaun-Ti Shaman)***
19.
20. Epic Wildshape I
21. Epic Shifter, Epic Wildshape II
22. Epic Wildshape III
23. Bonus Feat, Epic Humanoid Shape
24. Epic Wildshape IV, Elemental Shapes
25. Epic Humanoid Shape II
26. Bonus Feat
27.
28.
29. Bonus Feat
30.

Bonus/General feats: Weapon Focus Creature, Impro Critical Creature

Epic bonus feats: construct shape, gargantuan shape***, giant shape***, epic energy resistance, epic spell focus, epic spell penetration, great wisdom, improved combat casting, outsider shape, undead shape, epic weapon focus creature


New Feats
Humanoid Shape II = Dwarf Defender, Ogre Stomper, and Yaun-Ti Shaman (These forms will help fluff out the new hole between level 15 and epic)
Giant Shape = Wisdom 21, epic shifter (Cyclops, Fire Giant High Cleric, Mountain Giant)
Gargantuan Shape = Wisdom 28, epic shifter (Gargantuan Grick, Demon Overlord, Pyroclastic Dragon)

Old Feats
Undead Shape = Wisdom 20, epic shifter
Outsider Shape = Wisdom 25, epic shifter
Construct Shape = Wisdom 27, epic shifter

ALL FORMS WILL BE SET TO INFINITE USES.

Shifter spell DC will scale based off spells properly. It will still be Shifter + Druid level for CL calculations.

All Monk AC/UAB effects disabled while polymorphed.

Shifter AC progression will also be adjusted with the new level spread in mind.


Shifter ONLY spell changes


Manticore Spikes has been updated to a max of 10 spikes, instead of 5.
Storm of Vengeance will have a 5 rounds cool down.
Phantasmal Killer DC fixed for Slaad form. 10 (Base) + 4 (Spell Level) + Wisdom Mod + 6 (Epic Spell Focus).
Gate now only summons the CE version, and the CL scales properly based off Shifter + Druid.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d ... sp=sharing

Google document above has all the form information and adjustments.
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Re: Shifter Redesigned! Information/Feedback Inside.

Post by Nagwag »

I am missing the dragon shape? Is that intended? Also the elemental shapes?

And on a side note - uff ... not even a week in Amia, and my main gets completely "shifted" ...
Last edited by Nagwag on Tue Jan 19, 2021 12:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Maverick00053
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Re: Shifter Redesigned! Information/Feedback Inside.

Post by Maverick00053 »

Dragon Shape is being separated from Shifter so we can properly balance Shifter Forms / Druid Forms. Right now Dragon Shape is only useful/good with Druid + Summons + Buffs.

We will open up the Shifter being able to pick up the other Dragon Shape colors, but they are still going to be the Druid adjusted versions and not Shifter versions.

You will get a free rebuild for your main.
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Re: Shifter Redesigned! Information/Feedback Inside.

Post by Fortune Favours »

Add discipline to the class skills. Make going full 30 appealing besides bonus feat(s).
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Re: Shifter Redesigned! Information/Feedback Inside.

Post by GreatPigeon »

This still needs decided on - Epic bonus feats: automatic quicken spell, automatic silent spell, automatic still spell,

You cannot take those without prerequisites that the class cannot get. Will we allow these to be taken without prereqs for epic shifter?
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Re: Shifter Redesigned! Information/Feedback Inside.

Post by Cratz »

Just so it's clear (to me, at least), the new shifter class won't get any spell progressions from the druid spellbook? All their spells will be directly based on their chosen form at the time? I noticed they'll get the spell modification feats, but no mention of spells.

I don't see any problem with it honestly, if that's the case, I just don't see if it says that anywhere, although I might be blind.
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Re: Shifter Redesigned! Information/Feedback Inside.

Post by Nagwag »

As far as I got it in the discord discussion atm:
- no spellbook/spells aside from the form spells
- no spell focus/greater spell focus/epic spell focus cause the requirements are missing
- no auto-metamagic cause the requirements are missing
- no companion
- elemental form at level 24


edit:

BUT: some forms get spell foci/epic spell foci while in them!
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Re: Shifter Redesigned! Information/Feedback Inside.

Post by Maverick00053 »

Nagwag wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:10 am As far as I got it in the discord discussion atm:
- no spellbook/spells aside from the form spells
- no spell focus/greater spell focus/epic spell focus cause the requirements are missing
- no auto-metamagic cause the requirements are missing
- no companion
- elemental form at level 24
Yep.

Alot of the spell stuff still on the class is just left over stuff from the old shifter. No reason to remove it. Ill remove it for the sake of clarity though since you cannot pick some without spell casting ability.
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Re: Shifter Redesigned! Information/Feedback Inside.

Post by Nagwag »

I am uncertain about the weapon focus / imp crit things

I know that weapon focus unarmed doesnt work, so weapon focus creatrue should. But I also know that atm improved crit (unarmed) works on forms, so will improved crit (creature) work, too?
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Post by Fortune Favours »

Make items merge with the shapes.
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Post by Maverick00053 »

Fortune Favours wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:56 am Make items merge with the shapes.
They already do.
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Post by Cratz »

Okay my curiosity is sated on the magic end.

Next question: Why not add bluff into the skill list?
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Post by Nagwag »

funfact: there is a 27 missing in the levelspread ;)
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Post by Nagwag »

@itemmerge:

How is the itemmerge atm? Like in basic vanilla? So the merge depends on form, with the split of
  • Armour - Armour slot, off hand slot if shield, helmet
  • Item - both ring slots, amulet slot, cloak slot, boots slot, belt slot
  • Weapon - weapon in main hand, not off hand
Are gloves merged on Amia too? If yes as armour or item?

Is the NWNwiki vanilla item merge list correct? What merges with the new forms?
Last edited by Nagwag on Wed Jan 20, 2021 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by robbi320 »

Will the special, "excellent RP" forms (mummy, and so on) be looked at, or are those being phased out?

Edit: sorry, spreadsheet tabs... ignore my question.
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Re: Shifter Redesigned! Information/Feedback Inside.

Post by Fortune Favours »

Maverick00053 wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 4:14 am
Fortune Favours wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:56 am Make items merge with the shapes.
They already do.
All of them? Cool.
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Post by Nagwag »

That I still don't completely understand ... do all items merge with all forms? On one hand it looks like it, but then for example my medusa form doesnt get elemental damage on her bow, even if the weapon I use has a damage enchantment, and flame weapon on it. Is that a problem with how unlimited ammunition works?
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Post by Cratz »

Each form has it's own weapon. These weapons will 'overwrrite' what you have equipped. The only items that merge are armors/amulets/boots/belts/rings. (I think.)
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Re: Shifter Redesigned! Information/Feedback Inside.

Post by Nagwag »

After some more discord discussion, it looks like everything merges on all forms. Most likely the "problem" with ranged polymorphes is how the game handles ranged weapons and endless ammunition.
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Post by Nagwag »

Maverick00053 wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 12:26 am ALL FORMS WILL BE SET TO INFINITE USES..
@Maverick: Will this only be true for the "basic" class forms, or also for the epic feat forms? And what is with widget forms (like pixie and goblin mage)?
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Post by Maverick00053 »

ALL FORMS!

The widgets will need to be adjusted and handed back out. On launch though basic class forms and epic forms. I am also going to make Dragonshape for druids infinite.
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Post by Nagwag »

Yay!
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Re: Shifter Redesigned! Information/Feedback Inside.

Post by Budly »

Question, why is it a base class?
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Post by Raua »

Couple Reasons!
We wanted to rebalance it, making it a base class is much easier, and there is no PNP appropriate way to make it work better
We wanted to lift the alignment restrictions from it
We wanted to fix the server-breaking issues with it, and it was much easier to rebuild if from the ground up, see aforementioned points.
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Post by Budly »

Raua wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 8:26 pm Couple Reasons!
We wanted to rebalance it, making it a base class is much easier, and there is no PNP appropriate way to make it work better
We wanted to lift the alignment restrictions from it
We wanted to fix the server-breaking issues with it, and it was much easier to rebuild if from the ground up, see aforementioned points.
Okay. I see. Mechanically its easier to fix it like this.
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Re: Shifter Redesigned! Information/Feedback Inside.

Post by TheSojourner »

Budly wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 6:41 pm Question, why is it a base class?
I'd also hazard it was to divorce it from druid, which has always led to the awkwardness of having the opt-in of ignoring druid levels.
This is something that could be problematic to deal with if you want to create druid-specific scripts, since mechanically, you have no way of knowing if a character is intended to be a druid and a shifter, or just a shifter with the full intention of ignoring those druid levels.
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Post by Budly »

TheSojourner wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 10:59 pm
Budly wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 6:41 pm Question, why is it a base class?
I'd also hazard it was to divorce it from druid, which has always led to the awkwardness of having the opt-in of ignoring druid levels.
This is something that could be problematic to deal with if you want to create druid-specific scripts, since mechanically, you have no way of knowing if a character is intended to be a druid and a shifter, or just a shifter with the full intention of ignoring those druid levels.
They are a Master of the Wild class. So I always seen them as a Prc for Druids. I honestly do not understand personally people not comboing them with nature classes or playing them like a Doppelganger or non nature bound class. But thats just my opinion.
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Post by TheSojourner »

Budly wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 11:50 pm
TheSojourner wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 10:59 pm
Budly wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 6:41 pm Question, why is it a base class?
I'd also hazard it was to divorce it from druid, which has always led to the awkwardness of having the opt-in of ignoring druid levels.
This is something that could be problematic to deal with if you want to create druid-specific scripts, since mechanically, you have no way of knowing if a character is intended to be a druid and a shifter, or just a shifter with the full intention of ignoring those druid levels.
They are a Master of the Wild class. So I always seen them as a Prc for Druids. I honestly do not understand personally people not comboing them with nature classes or playing them like a Doppelganger or non nature bound class. But thats just my opinion.
That's one way to interpret them. Ultimately? That's one of their biggest ironies.
The class was apparently introduced to 3.0e in the Masters of the Wild handbook, but they do not necessarily have... any actual connection to the wild. If you see their PrCs requirements:

[hquote]Spells: Able to cast 3rd-level spells.
Special: Alternate Form—must either know polymorph self or have a natural alternate form, alter self, polymorph self, shapechange, or wild shape ability.
[/hquote]

This would place them as any casting class that can gain access to any polymorph ability. Which is... nearly all casters.

In NWN, their requirement is Wildshape, which only exists in the game as a druid class feature.
And druid is a very RP-heavy class, with pacts, with rituals, with oaths, with a secret language that they can't teach without losing their powers.
Amia had this necessary rule - IRC - that would allow you to ignore your druids levels if you were going for shifter, which makes a lot of sense since you have shapes that represent sworn enemies of the druids.

Rendering them a base class solves a few many design issues that NWN exacerbated from 3E.
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Post by Budly »

TheSojourner wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 12:14 am
Budly wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 11:50 pm
TheSojourner wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 10:59 pm

I'd also hazard it was to divorce it from druid, which has always led to the awkwardness of having the opt-in of ignoring druid levels.
This is something that could be problematic to deal with if you want to create druid-specific scripts, since mechanically, you have no way of knowing if a character is intended to be a druid and a shifter, or just a shifter with the full intention of ignoring those druid levels.
They are a Master of the Wild class. So I always seen them as a Prc for Druids. I honestly do not understand personally people not comboing them with nature classes or playing them like a Doppelganger or non nature bound class. But thats just my opinion.
That's one way to interpret them. Ultimately? That's one of their biggest ironies.
The class was apparently introduced to 3.0e in the Masters of the Wild handbook, but they do not necessarily have... any actual connection to the wild. If you see their PrCs requirements:

[hquote]Spells: Able to cast 3rd-level spells.
Special: Alternate Form—must either know polymorph self or have a natural alternate form, alter self, polymorph self, shapechange, or wild shape ability.
[/hquote]

This would place them as any casting class that can gain access to any polymorph ability. Which is... nearly all casters.

In NWN, their requirement is Wildshape, which only exists in the game as a druid class feature.
And druid is a very RP-heavy class, with pacts, with rituals, with oaths, with a secret language that they can't teach without losing their powers.
Amia had this necessary rule - IRC - that would allow you to ignore your druids levels if you were going for shifter, which makes a lot of sense since you have shapes that represent sworn enemies of the druids.

Rendering them a base class solves a few many design issues that NWN exacerbated from 3E.
In all honesty. I just leave as it is, this conversation. Me personally, think it should be tied to wilderness classes as its presented in a book, about such. But thats a opinion while the class suits Amia mechanically better as a base-class. I was just curious what the reasons behind it was. Since I can talk directly to the Amian devs and understand how they think by asking them like this, I like to when I have some kind of interest in it. Unlike most other things gaming related when I want to ask about a patchnote, what the idea or concept, reasons and so on, is for these changes but I can't cause there is no available dev to talk with.
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Post by Fortune Favours »

Skill points 6+Int and add discipline and spell craft. :)
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Post by Moogle »

At the bottom of the new spreadsheet, it lists Wildshape (the animal one) still as Level 5 Druid/Shifter, where the new Shifter gets Wildshape at level 1. Are Shifters going to get the same Wildshape as Druids or will it stay roughly like it is now? :D
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Post by Maverick00053 »

They will get wildshape, the first round of animals, at level 1. They don't get the upgraded ones, those are druids only.
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Post by Nagwag »

As someone new I dont completely get that rebuild. As I understood it, I build the char anew, from point zero, then get the items and xp transfered. So far, so good, but ...

- as two chars cant have the same name, must the old one be renamed befor? Maybe yes, as it is one step less to building a new one, then renaming BOTH
- can I even log in with the old char after the new class is implemented? As in theory the old prc is the new class, and stuff?

Soz, combing #technub and #Amianub makes me confused with that rebuild problematic.
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Post by TheSojourner »

Nagwag wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 8:14 am As someone new I dont completely get that rebuild. As I understood it, I build the char anew, from point zero, then get the items and xp transfered. So far, so good, but ...

- as two chars cant have the same name, must the old one be renamed befor? Maybe yes, as it is one step less to building a new one, then renaming BOTH
- can I even log in with the old char after the new class is implemented? As in theory the old prc is the new class, and stuff?

Soz, combing #technub and #Amianub makes me confused with that rebuild problematic.
When you rebuild, you will (probably) need to make a new character.
You should get a slight variation of the name of your character. Some people add or remove surnames, others change the spelling, others add a dot at the end of tha name, or an extra space somewhere.
You shouldn't log with the old character. That could create a TIME PARADOX and destroy the continuum. Please refrain from doing this for the sake of the continual existence of this timeline.
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Post by Nagwag »

Thats suboptimal, how to transfer items without destroying the timeline? :D
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Post by TheSojourner »

The DMs will sort that out with you when (if) you rebuild.
That's part of their job as keepers of the timeline and bane of plot holes.

And by the by, don't rebuild without getting the approval of the DMs first!
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Post by Cratz »

Typically during a rebuild the DMs will take all of your stuff, even the non-droppable ones, then rename you char, which will boot you. This will alow you to create a new char with your old name.

After that, well, it's a matter of what needs to be replaced. There are a few shifter trinkets in-game, so it'd be best to find those among your newly returned stuff (which will be in NO ORDER whatsoever, so good luck.) If you have any subrace trinkets, those will also be replicated, so they'll need to take one. (Speaking from experience here.)
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Post by kieranm »

Side question: does the disabling of monk UBAB apply to polymorphed druids (no shifter) as well?
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Post by GreatPigeon »

kieranm wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 7:12 am Side question: does the disabling of monk UBAB apply to polymorphed druids (no shifter) as well?
Yes
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